The next meeting of the Robert A. Heinlein Reading Group will be held on the following topic, at the following dates, times, and in the following place.

      Topic:   Glory Road and the Most Mammoth Hoax in History
      Dates 
      and Times:  Thursday, January 6, 2005, from 9 PM to midnight, ET
            and Saturday, January 8, 2005, from 5 to 8 PM, ET
      Place:   TBA [look for a subsequent post in this thread for
               directions, etc.]

      Reading Recommended: Glory Road (mandatory). There's a new hard
      cover edition issued by TOR in October, if you wish to give
      yourself a present, but any copy works just fine, including my old
      green and yellow covered paperback from Avon, printed in 1966.

      Chat Room Moderator: "agplusone," i.e., me.

They then return, nude, and pose at his bedside, with Letva explaining that as he is their honored guest, now honoring their lord's bed, and inquiring what is "a Hero's pleasure? One? Or two? Or all three?"

The Hero graciously declines. A gentleman doesn't sleep with his host's wife, or daughters, even if he has reason to believe his host is long past the point of several cups to the wind, does he?

The Hero is awakened by Rufo and Star the next morning to literally "cold shoulder," and informed that something has occurred which requires they depart immediately and flee the lands of the Doral, lest they forfeit their lives to him.

That finally leads to an examination of American sexual mores, and discovery by Oscar of what he calls the "most mammoth hoax in history."

Writer Heinlein made several points in the discussion that followed Oscar, Star, and Rufo's hurried departure from the Doral's stronghold and lands.

What do you believe they were, and what do you think of them?

Where there other stories by Heinlein in which he followed on with this theme?

What, if anything, overall did he have to say that affects or elaborates this theme of sexuality in mid-20th century western civilization?

Do you think any noticeable change has occurred in the forty or so years since?

We've found that the more discussion we generate by posts and replies before the actual chat meeting, the better the chats can be. Please don't hesitate to comment, reply, and raise other issues on the discussion of the theme of sexuality, and related themes of marriage, divorce, etc., raised by the story _Glory Road_ and other Heinlein writings. The more comments, the better.

I'm looking forward to seeing you on January 6th.

[David Wright, please contact me as soon as convenient, about links to the chatroom on our website. AIM appears to have made some programming changes, and they do not appear to work at present for either IBM type or Macintosh machines.]

--
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
     Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
     Lt.(jg), USN, R'td

In article <ag.plusone-C3E93A.12272718122004@individual.net>,
 "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:

> [David Wright, please contact me as soon as convenient, about links to 
> the chatroom on our website. AIM appears to have made some programming 
> changes, and they do not appear to work at present for either IBM type 
> or Macintosh machines.]

http://www.aim.com/index.adp

It comes in Windows, Macintosh, Linux, and "other" versions, whatever they are. Use the "For Your Computer" button to pick the right platform and OS version you use.

Results of investigation why some old links we have do not work correctly thus far: some changes have been made, whether software or not, or affected by new versions of website software or not. For users of Windows 98, the links do *not* presently work with Internet Explorer. I don't know why, but I suspect if you use Opera or some other browser with Windows 98, that might work. Any version of Windows after 98 works just fine with Internet Explorer with the links on our Heinlein Society which are at:

http://www.heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html

under the link "AIM Chat Room" underscored on the right hand top of the page,

and

http://www.heinleinsociety.org/links.html

in the left column under "Links" about thirteen links down (you'll have to scroll a little bit).

Look for the red button "Get It Now," on both pages. It's the link "AIM Chat Room" underscored, just above the red button.

I cannot comment on what version of the AOL browser if you're using Windows will do. It probably depends on what version of AOL you're running, whether it was when AOL used a version of IE, or whether it used its taken-over version of Netscrape.

I don't know what will happen with the latest versions of Mozilla or Netscape, on any platform, because I don't have them on my machine.

For users of Macintosh running OS X, you *have* to use Internet Explorer, and you cannot use Safari.

Confusing, huh?

Other methods not involving the use of a browser will get you in the room. The short-cut available to Windows users of AIM, if you've made one to that room on a previous occasion, and the Cmd-T method available to Macintosh users to invite themselves will both work. See, David Wright's instructions on

http://www.heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html#Info

For a Mac, sign on AIM (or iChat if you're using it, but AIM works better), and just hit Cmd-T while AIM is the open program, and an invitation will pop up. Erase whatever's in the buffer for room name and type the name of the chatroom where indicated, and invite yourself by typing your buddy name where indicated. Then click send.

If that's too confusing, David Wright will be at the chat. I will be at the chat. Look for us on your buddy list (put our 'names' in your buddy list first). Send an IM to use when you see us, and we'll or anyone else in the chat room will send you an invitation when you show up. Then, if you're on a Windows machine, you can make and save a "short-cut" if you wish to invite yourself back in the next time. There's a list of buddy names of folk who usually attend these chats (and the ones held in "The Lanai") around somewhere. Someone will hopefully put the URL up. I think it's on Chris Bohr's site. I'm "agplusone" usually. David is "DavidWrightSr" with or without the capital letters. Others are listed, and if you sign on at the correct time and don't find David or me on your buddy list, assuming you've entered our names, use one of theirs.

The name of the chatroom on AIM is "Heinlein Readers Group chat" typed exactly that way, without the quotes.

Hope we see you there, and welcome. Meanwhile when our webmistress gets back from wherever they are, I'll ask her to look into a code that will work, if possible, with all platforms and browsers.

-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
     Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
     Lt.(jg), USN, R'td

"David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in news:ag.plusone-
D98BF5.02533020122004@individual.net:

The links on the Heinlein Society WebSite has the following:

aim:gochat?roomname=Heinlein%2BReaders%2BGroup%2BChat

The '%2B' is hex for '+' which apparently is not being correctly passed on to AIM by the operating system. if you will copy the following

aim:gochat?roomname=Heinlein+Readers+Group+Chat

and do Right-Click-->New--->shortcut and paste the above into the box where it says 'Type the location of the item', then click Next. Give it a name and click 'Finish'.

This works for Windows.

-- 
David Wright
If you haven't joined the Society, Why Not?
The Heinlein Estate is matching new member
registrations before 12/30/2004.
       *Only 10 days left*
Make your new membership count twice

David M. Silver wrote:
[snips]
>       Topic:   Glory Road and the Most Mammoth Hoax in History
>       Dates

But, what hoax? Anybody got a "for dummies" explanation of what's going on here?

Socks

In article <1103557684.856898.170170@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
 "Puppet_Sock" <puppet_sock@hotmail.com> wrote:

> David M. Silver wrote:
> [snips]
> >       Topic:   Glory Road and the Most Mammoth Hoax in History
> >       Dates
> 
> Ok, maybe I'm particularly thick today. It is Monday. And I'm
> perfectly prepared to take my turn with the conical hat.
> 
> But, what hoax? Anybody got a "for dummies" explanation of
> what's going on here?
> Socks

There's a two or three page passage at the beginning of Chapter X in _Glory Road_ after the three adventurers had returned to Doral's stronghold, once Star found out exactly how Oscar had grievously offended the Doral and rode back to make amends if possible. After their return Oscar has heroically satisfied the requirement of "accepting hospitality of ... bed," and welcomed all three of the Graces (Doral's wife and two daughters) into that bed.

Now, three days later, they are leaving after a sumptuous breakfast, with musicians lining their route and even with the Doral's personal escort and his guard present saluting them with their swords, and Oscar exercises his weakest muscle -- his brain, by thinking about what has occurred the past three days.

At the farewell breakfast the Doral himself had sang about Oscar's "prowess" in accepting the hospitality of his bed, using a thousand intricate lines of poetry and music to laud that example of 'heroism.' Oscar returns his compliment with a recitation of poetry himself (but in English, which no one understands, but which Star "translates" to them "for" him). Her translation, a rather free interpretation, says that Oscar had "praised the ladies of Doral, the ideas being ones associated with Madame Pompadour, Nell Gwyn, Theodora, Ninon de l'Enclos, and Rangy Lil. She didn't name these famous ladies; instead she was specific, in Nevian eulogy that would have startled Francois Villon."

Oscar can listen and follow Star's free translation, and while doing so, he thinks to himself that had he been capable of extemporizing in Nervian language such poetry he actually would have tried to say what Star is saying he just said to them.

Jeanne-Antoinette Poisson (the Marchioness of Pompadour) became mistress to Louis XIV of France, and was known universally as "the last uncrowned Queen of France"; Nell Gwynne (a common, but popular, famous and successful actress at a time when "actress" was also synonymous with the epithet "whore") became mistress to Charles II of England; Theodora (a famous hyppodrome actress -- also at a time when the epithet whore applied -- noted for her wild parties off stage) became, after a religious conversation, the mistress of Justinian I, heir to the emperor of Constantinople (and later his empress); Ninon d'Enclos was a courtesan in the court of Louis XIV of France and for a time his mistress; and I'm going to have to bail out on "Rangy Lil." [see below for "Note 1."]

The salient feature in common all of these (the unrediscovered Rangy Lil of ballad fame excepted) possess was their compassion for people, especially the commoners who were ruled by the men who choose these courtesans as favorites (or wives), and their interest in elevating and refining their society, especially including the sensibilities and often vile tempers of the autocratic men whom they served as courtesan, around them.

Of the lesser known Ninon d'Enclos (including her among others less well known), Jose Marchena, a Spaniard then a soldier who had a penchant for perverse cleverness amounting to genius, as well as an appreciation of bawdy ballads, in one of his forgeries on Satyricon committed to excuse or deflect a reprimand from a general who issued it when that general heard him singing a bawdy ballad, commenting grandly on the Satyricon of Petronius Arbiter (something Robert Heinlein knew well, otherwise he wouldn't have named his most famous cat after the Roman author), wrote:

    A courtesan worthy of the name is a beautiful woman, gracious and
    amiable, at whose home gather men of letters and men of the world;
    the first magistrates, the greatest captains: and who keeps men of
    all professions in a happy state of mind because she is pleasing to
    them, she inspires in them a desire for reciprocal pleasure: such an
    one was Aspasia who, after having charmed the cultured people of
    Athens was for a long time the good companion of Pericles, and
    contributed much, perhaps, towards making his century what it was,
    the age of taste in arts and letters. Such an one also was Phryne,
    Lais, Glycera, and their names will always be celebrated; such,
    also, was Ninon d'Enclos, one of the ornaments of the century of
    Louis XIV, and Clairon, the first who realized all the grandeur of
    her art; such an one art thou, C-----, French Thalia, who commands
    attentions, I do not say this by way of apology but to share the
    opinion of Alceste.

    A courtesan such as I have in mind may have all the public and
    private virtues. One knows the severe probity of Ninon, her
    generosity, her taste for the arts, her attachment to her friends.
                        *   *   *   *   *

Francois Villon was a fifteenth century poet whose scathing attacks on many well-known people and institutions, using the vocabulary of criminals with whom he was imprisoned to express himself, were notorious. His masterpiece was _The Testament_, similar in style to earlier poems but more bitter and less humorous. He wound up awaiting the noose himself. At the last minute an appeal was granted him, and he disappeared, never to be hear from again.

Now further on in Glory Road: The Doral rides back to his stronghold, and while riding on, Oscar begins to think about a conversation he had with Star while resting in a steam bath from his heroic labors on the second day back at the stronghold. Oscar had told Star in a wink, wink, nudge, nudge fashion that he had been astonished how much he had enjoyed his labors with the Doral's wife and daughters, implying their proficiency in lovemaking had delighted him.

She tells him she's surprised he's surprised, or rather would be had Rufo not told her about Americans, that Americans have the only semicivilized culture known in which the physical manifestation of "love is not recognized as the highest art and given the serious study it deserves."

She goes on to tell him that if they live through their adventures she'll arrange that he travels among her Universes where he will see how much more well studied such a high art truly is among civilized cultures.

Oscar then ponders with his hero's mind what she's said:

   The "highest art" -- and back home we didn't even study it, much less
   make any attempt to teach it. Ballet takes years and years. Nor do
   they hire you to sing at the Met just because you have a loud voice.

   Why should "love" be classed as an "instinct"?

   Certainly the appetite for sex is an instinct -- but did another
   appetite make every glutton a gourmet, every fry cook a Cordon Bleu?
   Hell, you had to _learn_ even to be a fry cook.

   I walked out of the steam room whistling "The Best Things in Life Are
   Free" -- then chopped off in sudden sorrow for all my poor, unhappy
   compatriots cheated of their birthright by the most mammoth hoax in
   history.

                                 -- page 123, SFBC hard cover edition
                                    Putnam, 1963

I don't know. What's Heinlein getting at? Where does he go, Puppet Sock, with this line in Glory Road? What else of this theme in this and other of Heinlein's novels should we explore to talk about in our chat in January?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Note 1: About bailing out on "Rangy Lil": Beside noting that Lazarus teaches the song to Dora in TEFL, the best we've ever been able to come up with on her is in this thread back in June 2000 on alt.fan.heinlein.

"Zap Ophelia" started a thread here: http://tinyurl.com/6xn8s

We went around and around on it, and came to inconclusive results. We even asked Ginny. She said Robert, who couldn't carry a tune in a bucket, used to sing the ballad about Rangy Lil in her hearing, the words of which she couldn't recall and she couldn't recognize a tune as any she'd ever heard played. Ginny and Robert liked ballads of that bawdy sort, and even had a collection of vinyl of some of them, from Oscar Brand, and others.

Our conclusion was it most likely was a sort of Alaska Gold Rush ballad, as "Four Whores Came Down from Canada" (which we on alt.fan.heinlein have found) is, the lyrics being kind of poetry Robert Service might have published, only much more bawdy.

I have no idea where she found them, but the closest two poems in that "genre" Zap Ophelia could come up with were two songs about a "Lil" or a "Lillian" to which if you add the word "Rangy" before Lil (and do something better than I have about fixing the scansion), render thus:

POOR RANGY LIL (1)

Her name was Rangy Lil and she was a beauty,
She came from a house of ill reputy,
But she drank too deep of the demon rum,
She smoked hashish and opium.

She was young and she was fair,
She had lovely golden hair,
Gentlemen came from miles to see
Rangy Lil in her deshabille.

Day by day her form grew thinner,
>From insufficient protein in her,
She grew two hollows on her chest,
Why, she had to go around completely dressed.

Now clothes may make a gal go far,
But they have no place on a fille de joie,
Rangy Lil's troubles started when
She concealed her abdomen.

She went to the house physician,
To prescribe for her condition,
"You have got," the doc did say,
"Pernicious anem-i-a."

She took to treatments in the sun,
She drank of Scott's Emul-si-on,
Three times daily she took yeast,
But still her clientele decreased.

For you must know her cliente-le,
Rested chiefly on her belly,
She rilled this thing like the deep Pacific,
It was something calorific.

As Rangy Lil lay in her dishonor,
She felt the hand of the Lord upon her,
She said, "Me sins I now repents,
But Lord, that'll cost you fifty cents."

This is the story of Rangy Lil,
She was one girl in a million,
And the moral to her story is,
Whatever your line of business is, fitness wins!


POOR RANGY LIL (2)

She was the best our camp produced
And them that ain't been screwed by Rangy Lil
Ain't had no goose and never will,
For Rangy Lil's been took away.

TTwas a standing bet around our town,
That no one could screw her and clamp her down
For when she screwed, she screwed for keeps,
And piled her victims up in heaps.

But down from the north came Yukon Pete,
With sixteen pounds of rolling meat.
When he laid his cock out on the bar,
The damn thing reached from here to thar.

We all knew Rangy Lil had met her fate
But we couldn't back down that thar late,
So it was arranged down by the mil,
Back of the schoolhouse on the hill.

When all the boys could get a seat
And watch that half-breed bury his meat,
Rangy Lil started out like the Autumn breeze
Whistling through the hemlock trees.

She tried the twist and the double bunt
And all the tricks wha's known to cunt,
But Pete was with her every lick
And just kept reeling out more prick.

At last poor Rangy Lil just had to stop,
For Pete had nailed her to the spot.
Here clothes were torn and ripped to shreds,
And scatters all over the cactus beds.

The sod was ripped for miles around
Where poor Rangy Lil's ass had hit the ground
But she died game I'm here to tell,
Died with her boots on where she fell
So what the hell boys, what the hell!

-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
     Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
     Lt.(jg), USN, R'td

David M. Silver wrote:

> 
> Oscar had "praised the ladies of Doral, the ideas being ones associated 
> with Madame Pompadour, Nell Gwyn, Theodora, Ninon de l'Enclos, and Rangy 
> Lil."

Makes for a very convoluted discussion.

In article <32rcbaF3mks6aU1@individual.net>,
 lal_truckee <lal_truckee@yahoo.com> wrote:

> David M. Silver wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Oscar had "praised the ladies of Doral, the ideas being ones associated 
> > with Madame Pompadour, Nell Gwyn, Theodora, Ninon de l'Enclos, and Rangy 
> > Lil."
> 
> Most interestingly, in the context of the discussion, these four 
> paradigms of enthusiasm are arguably exactly what is being presented as 
> the great hoax - prostitutes...
> 
> Makes for a very convoluted discussion.

thanx, Lal ... heh.

Did you ever happen to notice that Cyrano calls Karth-Hokesh "Hoax"?

And when Oscar calls him on it, he says, "Hoax, Hokesh -- a matter of geography and accent; this chateau was once in the Carpathians, so 'Hokesh' it is, if 'twill make your death merrier. Come now, let us sing."

What's going on -- and whose castle are we in -- in the Carpathians? Vlad the Impaler?

And what does "Hoax" have to do with the most mammoth hoax in history?

Any ideas?

Saddle up, and let's rustle some cattle, Lal.

-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
     Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
     Lt.(jg), USN, R'td

"David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:ag.plusone-E61998.12313221122004@individual.net...
> In article <32rcbaF3mks6aU1@individual.net>,
>  lal_truckee <lal_truckee@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > David M. Silver wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Oscar had "praised the ladies of Doral, the ideas being ones associated
> > > with Madame Pompadour, Nell Gwyn, Theodora, Ninon de l'Enclos, and Rangy
> > > Lil."
> >
> > Most interestingly, in the context of the discussion, these four
> > paradigms of enthusiasm are arguably exactly what is being presented as
> > the great hoax - prostitutes...
> >
> > Makes for a very convoluted discussion.
>
> As I was bopping along as we used to say, reading my brand new copy of
> _Glory Road_ I noticed the same thing, Lal, -- went back and read the
> chapter again, and said to myself, "Self, why haven't we ever discussed
> this 'Hoax' before? Whatever in the world is Heinlein doing?"
>
> thanx, Lal ... heh.
>
> Did you ever happen to notice that Cyrano calls Karth-Hokesh "Hoax"?
>
> And when Oscar calls him on it, he says, "Hoax, Hokesh -- a matter of
> geography and accent; this chateau was once in the Carpathians, so
> 'Hokesh' it is, if 'twill make your death merrier. Come now, let us
> sing."
>
> What's going on -- and whose castle are we in -- in the Carpathians?
> Vlad the Impaler?
>
> And what does "Hoax" have to do with the most mammoth hoax in history?
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Saddle up, and let's rustle some cattle, Lal.
>
> --

The first thing I thought of when I saw chateau and Carpathians was Jules Verne - he wrote a novel called The Castle in the Carpathians (or approximately that in French). If I recall correctly, there is a female ghost that turns out to be a fake but memory may be playing tricks on me.

Regards, Peter.

In article <32rt5iF3ps4mkU1@individual.net>,
 "Peter" <dacelogunreal@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Came into this thread part way through so apologies if I don't know what's
> going on.
> 
> The first thing I thought of when I saw chateau and Carpathians was Jules
> Verne - he wrote a novel called The Castle in the Carpathians (or
> approximately that in French). If I recall correctly, there is a female
> ghost that turns out to be a fake but memory may be playing tricks on me.
> 
> Regards,
> Peter.

I always knew there were Vernes I ought to find and read. Off to Gutenberg ...

Basically we periodically have live chats under chatroom software.

Here's my lead-off post on Sat, Dec 18, 2004, that started this can of worms:

The next meeting of the Robert A. Heinlein Reading Group will be held on 
the following topic, at the following dates, times, and in the following 
place.

      Topic:   Glory Road and the Most Mammoth Hoax in History
      Dates 
      and Times:  Thursday, January 6, 2005, from 9 PM to midnight, ET
            and Saturday, January 8, 2005, from 5 to 8 PM, ET
      Place:   [AIM chatroom "Heinlein Readers Group chat"] 
See,
               

http://www.heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html#Info

for basic access of the chatroom.

      Reading Recommended: Glory Road (mandatory). There's a new hard
      cover edition issued by TOR in October, if you wish to give
      yourself a present, but any copy works just fine, including my old
      green and yellow covered paperback from Avon, printed in 1966.

      Chat Room Moderator: "agplusone," i.e., me.

In Chapter Eight of _Glory Road_ Oscar Gordon, Hero First Class, commits 
an enormous cultural faux paux when he declines the after dinner 
attentions of the Three Graces. Oscar, Her Wisdom, and Rufo, Oscar's 
"groom," are on the way to capture the Egg; and they've stopped, after 
vanquishing Igli at the Doral Jocko's stronghold for refreshment, rest, 
and to replenish lost supplies. Everything went swimmingly well, as 
Jocko, who is an old friend of Star, Her Wisdom, offers the Hero what 
they need, asking only that "he will honor my house by accepting 
hospitality of roof ... and table ... and bed" which Hero Oscar accepts. 
A sumptuous feast of welcome follows. At its end, hours later, the 
Doral's wife, Letva, flanked by two of her daughters, leads Oscar to his 
sleeping chamber and put Oscar, several wine cups to the wind, to bed, 
and withdraw.

They then return, nude, and pose at his bedside, with Letva explaining 
that as he is their honored guest, now honoring their lord's bed, and 
inquiring what is "a Hero's pleasure? One? Or two? Or all three?"

The Hero graciously declines. A gentleman doesn't sleep with his host's 
wife, or daughters, even if he has reason to believe his host is long 
past the point of several cups to the wind, does he?

The Hero is awakened by Rufo and Star the next morning to literally 
"cold shoulder," and informed that something has occurred which requires 
they depart immediately and flee the lands of the Doral, lest they 
forfeit their lives to him. 

That finally leads to an examination of American sexual mores, and 
discovery by Oscar of what he calls the "most mammoth hoax in history."

Writer Heinlein made several points in the discussion that followed 
Oscar, Star, and Rufo's hurried departure from the Doral's stronghold 
and lands. 

What do you believe they were, and what do you think of them?

Where there other stories by Heinlein in which he followed on with this 
theme? 

What, if anything, overall did he have to say that affects or elaborates 
this theme of sexuality in mid-20th century western civilization?

Do you think any noticeable change has occurred in the forty or so years 
since?

  -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= end repeated post =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Hope we see you, and whether we do or not, please do not refrain from any comments in the thread that you wish to make.

Have fun!

-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
     Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
     Lt.(jg), USN, R'td

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:52:38 -0800, "David M. Silver"
<ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:

>> The first thing I thought of when I saw chateau and Carpathians was Jules
>> Verne - he wrote a novel called The Castle in the Carpathians (or
>> approximately that in French). If I recall correctly, there is a female
>> ghost that turns out to be a fake but memory may be playing tricks on me.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Peter.
>
>Hi, Peter,
>
>I always knew there were Vernes I ought to find and read. Off to 
>Gutenberg ... 

--
-denny-

Some people are offence kleptomaniacs -- whenever they see
an offence that isn't nailed down, they take it ;-)
--David C. Pugh, in alt.callahans

In article <32rt5iF3ps4mkU1@individual.net>,
 "Peter" <dacelogunreal@hotmail.com> wrote:

>  Jules
> Verne - he wrote a novel called The Castle in the Carpathians (or
> approximately that in French)

-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
     Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
     Lt.(jg), USN, R'td

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 12:31:32 -0800, "David M. Silver"
<ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:

>Did you ever happen to notice that Cyrano calls Karth-Hokesh "Hoax"?
>
>And when Oscar calls him on it, he says, "Hoax, Hokesh -- a matter of 
>geography and accent; this chateau was once in the Carpathians, so 
>'Hokesh' it is, if 'twill make your death merrier. Come now, let us 
>sing."
>
>What's going on -- and whose castle are we in -- in the Carpathians? 
>Vlad the Impaler? 
>
>And what does "Hoax" have to do with the most mammoth hoax in history?

Lots of castles/chateaux in the Carpathians, I suspect--but why shouldn't that one have once belonged to Vlad Tepes?

--
-denny-

Some people are offence kleptomaniacs -- whenever they see
an offence that isn't nailed down, they take it ;-)
--David C. Pugh, in alt.callahans

"David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in message news:ag.plusone-
> Note 1: About bailing out on "Rangy Lil": Beside noting that Lazarus
> teaches the song to Dora in TEFL, the best we've ever been able to come
> up with on her is in this thread back in June 2000 on alt.fan.heinlein.
>
> "Zap Ophelia" started a thread here: http://tinyurl.com/6xn8s
>
> We went around and around on it, and came to inconclusive results. We
> even asked Ginny. She said Robert, who couldn't carry a tune in a
> bucket, used to sing the ballad about Rangy Lil in her hearing, the
> words of which she couldn't recall and she couldn't recognize a tune as
> any she'd ever heard played. Ginny and Robert liked ballads of that
> bawdy sort, and even had a collection of vinyl of some of them, from
> Oscar Brand, and others.
>
> Our conclusion was it most likely was a sort of Alaska Gold Rush ballad,
> as "Four Whores Came Down from Canada" (which we on alt.fan.heinlein
> have found) is, the lyrics being kind of poetry Robert Service might
> have published, only much more bawdy.
>
> I have no idea where she found them, but the closest two poems in that
> "genre" Zap Ophelia could come up with were two songs about a "Lil" or a
> "Lillian" to which if you add the word "Rangy" before Lil (and do
> something better than I have about fixing the scansion), render thus:
>
>
> POOR RANGY LIL (1)
>
> Her name was Rangy Lil and she was a beauty,
> She came from a house of ill reputy,
> But she drank too deep of the demon rum,
> She smoked hashish and opium.
>
> She was young and she was fair,
> She had lovely golden hair,
> Gentlemen came from miles to see
> Rangy Lil in her deshabille.
>
> Day by day her form grew thinner,
> From insufficient protein in her,
> She grew two hollows on her chest,
> Why, she had to go around completely dressed.
>
> Now clothes may make a gal go far,
> But they have no place on a fille de joie,
> Rangy Lil's troubles started when
> She concealed her abdomen.
>
> She went to the house physician,
> To prescribe for her condition,
> "You have got," the doc did say,
> "Pernicious anem-i-a."
>
> She took to treatments in the sun,
> She drank of Scott's Emul-si-on,
> Three times daily she took yeast,
> But still her clientele decreased.
>
> For you must know her cliente-le,
> Rested chiefly on her belly,
> She rilled this thing like the deep Pacific,
> It was something calorific.
>
> As Rangy Lil lay in her dishonor,
> She felt the hand of the Lord upon her,
> She said, "Me sins I now repents,
> But Lord, that'll cost you fifty cents."
>
> This is the story of Rangy Lil,
> She was one girl in a million,
> And the moral to her story is,
> Whatever your line of business is, fitness wins!
>
>
> POOR RANGY LIL (2)
>
> She was the best our camp produced
> And them that ain't been screwed by Rangy Lil
> Ain't had no goose and never will,
> For Rangy Lil's been took away.
>
> TTwas a standing bet around our town,
> That no one could screw her and clamp her down
> For when she screwed, she screwed for keeps,
> And piled her victims up in heaps.
>
> But down from the north came Yukon Pete,
> With sixteen pounds of rolling meat.
> When he laid his cock out on the bar,
> The damn thing reached from here to thar.
>
> We all knew Rangy Lil had met her fate
> But we couldn't back down that thar late,
> So it was arranged down by the mil,
> Back of the schoolhouse on the hill.
>
> When all the boys could get a seat
> And watch that half-breed bury his meat,
> Rangy Lil started out like the Autumn breeze
> Whistling through the hemlock trees.
>
> She tried the twist and the double bunt
> And all the tricks wha's known to cunt,
> But Pete was with her every lick
> And just kept reeling out more prick.
>
> At last poor Rangy Lil just had to stop,
> For Pete had nailed her to the spot.
> Here clothes were torn and ripped to shreds,
> And scatters all over the cactus beds.
>
> The sod was ripped for miles around
> Where poor Rangy Lil's ass had hit the ground
> But she died game I'm here to tell,
> Died with her boots on where she fell
> So what the hell boys, what the hell!
>
>
> I think the second fits my theory about just a bit better than the
> first.
>
> -- 
> David M. Silver
> http://www.heinleinsociety.org
> "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
>     Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
>     Lt.(jg), USN, R'td

http://iies.www.ecn.purdue.edu/IIES/PLAIC/380/HISTORY/PARTVI/RangyLil.htm

-- 

Hope I die before I get old.
(Pete Townshend)
Ta.
:-[ ) 

> 
> David, this idea came to me as we know RAH's penchant for the fighting man.
>
http://iies.www.ecn.purdue.edu/IIES/PLAIC/380/HISTORY/PARTVI/RangyLil.htm

Anyone know any books about famous B-24s in the Pacific? 54 missions in the last year of the war.

-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
     Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
     Lt.(jg), USN, R'td

Putting two cents down on the Hoax theory concerning sex, love, and mores as bandied about time to time in Heinleinian writings.

The earlier post concerning the use of the word 'love' where 'sex' may have been meant but edited to pass the editors....I believe it was meant to say sex, and that the author used a euphemism. The whole subplot of American views on sex meshes into so many of the other writings to come (already written? My juvie history is poor) that I assumed on first read that this was another prod by RAH to say 'hey, maybe we are going about this wrong'. Now, I am reading this novel for only the second time (hooray! seems new!) and seeing a precursor to Smith once he 'understands' humans. Star seems to have that outlook that Smith had late in Stranger, the 'wise oh that custom is so unnecessary' attitude. That makes our Hero a mish mash of Jubal and Ben and Duke, I guess...though he strongly reminds me of Zebbie.

Anyway, random mutterings too late at night after too much MMOG-ing.

--
Stephanie
http://hometown.aol.com/merfilly27/myhomepage/profile.html

In article <20041222020444.06154.00001520@mb-m21.aol.com>,
 merfilly27@aol.combzzyxvt (Stephanie) wrote:

> That makes our Hero a mish mash of Jubal and Ben and
> Duke, I guess...though he strongly reminds me of Zebbie.

-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
     Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
     Lt.(jg), USN, R'td

"David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:ag.plusone-AB33BC.02244422122004@individual.net...
> In article <20041222020444.06154.00001520@mb-m21.aol.com>,
>  merfilly27@aol.combzzyxvt (Stephanie) wrote:
>
> > That makes our Hero a mish mash of Jubal and Ben and
> > Duke, I guess...though he strongly reminds me of Zebbie.
>
> He should, because when we next see Oscar, at the party in "L'envoi"
> last chapter in _Number_ he winds up standing next to Zebbie, and they
> look nearly identical.

Gary Cooper? Tall and lanky enough but maybe a little too slow of thought process and delivery of lines. Maybe too hard to cast against type since Oscar has to become more sexually liberated...

Clark Gable? Probably not tall enough but enough of a smartass. Probably too dissipated by then but a younger Gable.

Cary Grant? Some possibilities here if you can rewrite to accommodate the accent of hire an effective vocal coach.

Robert Mitchum? Interesting...but, probably not. Well, maybe. Rugged enough, for sure, and you don't have to teach him the cynicism or how to project sexuality. Some clear possibilities. Maybe--but something gnaws at me...

Who else...?

Alan Ladd: too short.

Audie Murphy: too short, can't act.

William Powell: from Kansas City but too short, too thin, too smart.

William Holden: hmmm...have to think about it.

Glenn Ford: Well...no. He's got some of what we're looking for but not enough or in the right amounts. Could be taller, too, or appear taller on film.

Okay, now. Who's Star? What? It's a whole lot easier to find somebody who can play her than the guy who "is" Oscar? The candidates are obvious? You think so? Why is that and who are they?

LNC

>It's 1959, and the author's been alive throughout the entirety of the motion
>picture era, to date. He sits to write his classic, strong-male-protagonist
>novel and casts somebody in the lead. Who?
<snip>

cmaj7dmin7 wrote:

< snip >

> It's 1959, and the author's been alive throughout the entirety of
> the motion picture era, to date. He sits to write his classic,
> strong-male-protagonist novel and casts somebody in the lead.
> Who?

< snip of the guys who CAN'T play Oscar >

> Okay, now. Who's Star? What? It's a whole lot easier to find
> somebody who can play her than the guy who "is" Oscar? The
> candidates are obvious? You think so? Why is that and who are
> they?

I think the easiest explanation for this is that basically there has been a paradigm shift in the standard configuration of 'the young leads' during the intervening period.

What do you think? Who do you think is the 'obvious choice' for Star -- in 1959?

Rufe

> cmaj7dmin7 wrote:
> 
> < snip >
> 
> > It's 1959, and the author's been alive throughout the entirety of
> > the motion picture era, to date. He sits to write his classic,
> > strong-male-protagonist novel and casts somebody in the lead.
> > Who?
> 
> < snip of the guys who CAN'T play Oscar >
> 
> 	If you're going to keep this in 1959 for the purposes of casting, 
> the first one I can think of is Warren Beatty. He made a hit in 1961 
> in Kazan's "Splendor in the Grass."
> 	If you're going to allow casting from the currently available 
> persons, this will, of course, change.
> 

> 
> > Okay, now. Who's Star? What? It's a whole lot easier to find
> > somebody who can play her than the guy who "is" Oscar? The
> > candidates are obvious? You think so? Why is that and who are
> > they?
> 
> 	"Oh ho, Cisco!"  I don't believe you have the rights of it at all, 
> at all. Just as above, I think the choices -- in 1858 -- are very 
> limited for this role.  The only one who comes to me is Raquel
> Welch. She had the right build and attitude. Perhaps, Jane Fonda but 
> I don't think she was 'physically' correct for the role. Much
> to 'small' in many senses of the word.
> 	Once again, if you allow for 'current' casting, the choices broaden 
> considerably.
> 
> 	I think the easiest explanation for this is that basically  there 
> has been a paradigm shift in the standard configuration of 'the 
> young leads' during the intervening period.
> 

> What do you think? Who do you think is the 'obvious choice' for Star 
> -- in 1959?
> 
> Rufe

-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
     Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
     Lt.(jg), USN, R'td

"Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote in message

<snip>

> What do you think? Who do you think is the 'obvious choice' for Star -- in 
> 1959?
>
> Rufe

Big_Fella wrote:

> "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> 
> <snip>
> 
>>What do you think? Who do you think is the 'obvious choice' for Star -- in 
>>1959?
>>
>>Rufe
> 
> 
> 
> Tina Louise would be my thought. 
> 
> 

  "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:E5Hyd.7708$9j5.1785@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
  >
  >
  > Big_Fella wrote:
  >
  >> "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote in message
  >>
  >> <snip>
  >>
  >>>What do you think? Who do you think is the 'obvious choice' for Star -- in
  >>>1959?
  >>>
  >>>Rufe
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >> Tina Louise would be my thought.
  >>
  >>
  >
  > I just thought of another:  Diana Rigg !!

  "Fred Waiss, Sr." <george@alpinecom.net> wrote in message
news:cqnobu$h0$1@news.netins.net...
  >
  >  "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote in message
  > news:E5Hyd.7708$9j5.1785@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
  >  >
  >  >
  >  > Big_Fella wrote:
  >  >
  >  >> "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote in message
  >  >>
  >  >> <snip>
  >  >>
  >  >>>What do you think? Who do you think is the 'obvious choice' for Star --  in
  >  >>>1959?
  >  >>>
  >  >>>Rufe
  >  >>
  >  >>
  >  >>
  >  >> Tina Louise would be my thought.
  >  >>
  >  >>
  >  >
  >  > I just thought of another:  Diana Rigg !!
  >
  >          Good choice for 1959.  For today, I'd have to go with Gina Davis.
  >
      Make that "Geena Davis," Bonehead.

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:49:40 GMT, in alt.fan.heinlein, "cmaj7dmin7"
<reilloc@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>"David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in message
>news:ag.plusone-AB33BC.02244422122004@individual.net...
>> In article <20041222020444.06154.00001520@mb-m21.aol.com>,
>>  merfilly27@aol.combzzyxvt (Stephanie) wrote:
>>
>> > That makes our Hero a mish mash of Jubal and Ben and
>> > Duke, I guess...though he strongly reminds me of Zebbie.
>>
>> He should, because when we next see Oscar, at the party in "L'envoi"
>> last chapter in _Number_ he winds up standing next to Zebbie, and they
>> look nearly identical.
>
>It's 1959, and the author's been alive throughout the entirety of the motion
>picture era, to date. He sits to write his classic, strong-male-protagonist
>novel and casts somebody in the lead. Who?
>
>Gary Cooper? Tall and lanky enough but maybe a little too slow of thought
>process and delivery of lines. Maybe too hard to cast against type since
>Oscar has to become more sexually liberated...
>
>Clark Gable? Probably not tall enough but enough of a smartass. Probably too
>dissipated by then but a younger Gable.
>
>Cary Grant? Some possibilities here if you can rewrite to accommodate the
>accent of hire an effective vocal coach.
>
>Robert Mitchum? Interesting...but, probably not. Well, maybe. Rugged enough,
>for sure, and you don't have to teach him the cynicism or how to project
>sexuality. Some clear possibilities. Maybe--but something gnaws at me...
>
>Who else...?
>
>Alan Ladd: too short.
>
>Audie Murphy: too short, can't act.
>
>William Powell: from Kansas City but too short, too thin, too smart.
>
>William Holden: hmmm...have to think about it.
>
>Glenn Ford: Well...no. He's got some of what we're looking for but not
>enough or in the right amounts. Could be taller, too, or appear taller on
>film.
>
>Okay, now. Who's Star? What? It's a whole lot easier to find somebody who
>can play her than the guy who "is" Oscar? The candidates are obvious? You
>think so? Why is that and who are they?

Bridgitte (sp?) Bardot
Raquel Welch
Jane Fonda

those are just looks-wise, though. That's the easy part, IMHO. For that time period, I think the names I give don't count; how about Sophia Loren? One of the Gabors? I dunno, that's just looks too.

-- 
~teresa~
 AFH Barwench

  ^..^  "Never try to outstubborn a cat."  Robert A. Heinlein  ^..^
   http://pixelmeow.com/  http://www.heinleinsociety.org/
     http://pixelmeow.com/Book_Exchange/index.htm
     http://www.storesonline.com/site/rowanmystic
      aim: pixelmeow msn: pixelmeow@passport.com
       email my first name at pixelmeow dot com

"pixelmeow" <GMUESSJDRYND@spammotel.com> wrote in message
news:14mjs0pn0pl12qbg3128h6uet032t7v922@4ax.com...

> When I was sitting at the table in Boston with David and Bill, a man
> came by with an envelope of (I think) original artwork from book
> covers, and he had a cover for Glory Road.  The woman in that drawing
> *was* Star, that was exactly what she looks like to me.  Only people
> who even come close, to me, are:
>
> Bridgitte (sp?) Bardot
> Raquel Welch
> Jane Fonda
>
> those are just looks-wise, though.  That's the easy part, IMHO.  For
> that time period, I think the names I give don't count; how about
> Sophia Loren?  One of the Gabors?  I dunno, that's just looks too.
>
> -- 
> ~teresa~
>  AFH Barwench

 Woman, girl--I couldn't be sure. At first glance I thought she was
eighteen, maybe twenty; later when I was able to look her square in her face
she still looked eighteen but could have been forty. Or a hundred and forty.
She had the agelessness of perfect beauty. Like Helen or Troy, or Cleopatra.
It seemed possible that she was Helen of Troy but I knew she wasn't
Cleopatra because she was not a redhead; she was a natural blonde. She was a
tawny toast color allover without a hint of bikini marks and her hair was
the same shade two tones litter. It flowed, unconfined, in graceful waves
down her back and seemed never to have been cut.
    She was tall, not much shorter than I am, and not too much lighter in
weight. Not fat, not fat at all save for that graceful padding that smoothes
the feminine form, shading the muscles underneath--I was sure there were
muscles underneath; she carried herself with the relaxed power of a lioness.
    Her shoulders were broad for a woman, as broad as her very female hips;
her waist might have seemed thick on a lesser woman, on her it was
deliciously slender. Her belly did not sag at all but carried the lovely
double domed curve of perfect muscle tone. Her breasts--only her big rib
cage could carry such large ones without appearing too much of a good thing,
they jutted firmly out and moved only a trifle when she moved, and they were
crowned with rosy brown confections that were frankly nipples, womanly and
not virginal.
    Her navel was that jewel the Persian poets praised.
    Her legs were long for her height; her hands and feet were not small but
were slender, graceful. She was graceful in all ways; it was impossible to
think of her in a pose ungraceful. Yet she was so lithe and limber that,
like a cat, she could have twisted herself into any position.
    Her face--How do you describe perfect beauty except to say that when you
see it you can't mistake it? Her lips were full and her mouth rather wide.
It was faintly curved in the ghost of a smile even when her features were at
rest. Her lips were red but if she was wearing makeup of any sort it had
been applied so skillfully that I could not detect it--and that alone would
have made her stand out, for that was a year all other females were wearing
"Continental" makeup, as artificial as a corset and as bold as a doxy's
smile.
    Her nose was straight and large enough for her face, no button. Her
eyes--
    She caught me staring at her. Certainly women expect to be locked at and
expect it unclothed quite as much as when dressed for the ball. But it is
rude to stare openly. I had given up the fight in the first ten seconds and
was trying to memorize her, every line, every curve.
    Her eyes locked with mine and she stared back and I began to blush but
couldn't look away. Her eyes were so deep a blue that they were dark, darker
than my own brown eyes.
    I said huskily, "Pardonnez-moi, ma'm'selle," and managed to tear my eyes
away.
    She answered, in English, "Oh, I don't mind. Look all you please," and
looked me up and down as carefully as I had inspected her. Her voice was a
warm, fall contralto, surprisingly deep in its lowest register.
    She took two steps toward me and almost stood over me. I started to get
up and she motioned me to stay seated, with a gesture mat assumed obedience
as if she were very used to giving orders. "Rest where you are," she said.
The breeze carried her fragrance to me and I got goose flesh all over. "You
are American."
    "Yes." I was certain she was not, yet I was equally certain she was not
French. Not only did she have no trace of French accent but also--well,
French women are at least slightly provocative at all times; they can't help
it, it's ingrained in the French culture. There was nothing provocative
about this woman--except that she was an incitement to riot just by
existing.
    But, without being provocative, she had that rare gift for immediate
intimacy; she spoke to me as a very old friend might speak, friends who knew
each other's smallest foibles and were utterly easy tete-a-tete. She asked
me questions about myself, some of them quite personal, and I answered all
of them, honestly, and it never occurred to me that she had no right to quiz
me. She never asked my name, nor I hers--nor any question of her.
    At last she stopped and looked me over again, carefully and soberly.
Then she said thoughtfully, "You are very beautiful," and added, "Au
'voir"--turned and walked down the beach into the water and swam away.
    I was too stunned to move. Nobody had ever called me "handsome" even
before I broke my nose. As for "beautiful!"
    But I don't think it would have done me any good to have chased her,
even if I had thought of it in time. That gal could swim.

**************************************
Maybe the pool of candidates isn't so big but then, again, re-reading her description, I don't know if I'd want such a creature actually to exist.

LNC

Pixelmeow:

>> When I was sitting at the table in Boston with David and Bill, a man
>> came by with an envelope of (I think) original artwork from book
>> covers, and he had a cover for Glory Road.  

Off topic aside: It was Andy Porter
Bill

On 24 Dec 2004 01:56:08 GMT, in alt.fan.heinlein, bpral22169@aol.com
(BPRAL22169) scribbled:

>Pixelmeow:
>
>>> When I was sitting at the table in Boston with David and Bill, a man
>>> came by with an envelope of (I think) original artwork from book
>>> covers, and he had a cover for Glory Road.  
>
>Off topic aside:  It was Andy Porter
>Bill

-- 
~teresa~
 AFH Barwench

    ^..^  "Never try to outstubborn a cat."  Robert A. Heinlein  ^..^
    http://www.heinleinsociety.org/    http://pixelmeow.com/  
    http://pixelmeow.com/Book_Exchange/index.htm
    http://www.storesonline.com/site/rowanmystic/
    aim: pixelmeow  msn:pixelmeow@passport.com
    my first name at pixelmeow dot com

Stephanie:

Although _Podkayne of Mars_ was the immediate next book after _Stranger_, Poddie had been started in October 1958 and was about 40% written, so he was completing a job already done. _Glory Road_ was the first book entirely conceived and written following _Stranger_.

Bill

From: bpral22169@aol.com

>Although _Podkayne of Mars_ was the immediate next book after _Stranger_,
>Poddie had  been started in October 1958 and was about 40% written, so he was
>completing a job already done.  _Glory Road_ was the first  book entirely
>conceived and written following _Stranger_.  

--
Stephanie
http://hometown.aol.com/merfilly27/myhomepage/profile.html

Stephanie:

It's easy to get confused with the major editions of Stranger coming up in the late 1960's and early 1970's -- a very unusual publishing history for that book.

Bill

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 18:36:07 -0800, "David M. Silver"
<ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:

>
>What is the most mammoth hoax in history? Is it that our appetites for 
>sex should _not_ be educated and exercised, but rather repressed and 
>labeled sinful? Or is it that "love" requires more than merely 
>occasional exercise a despised animal act of passion for species 
>procreation?

With some luck, I'll be able to find Glory Road and an hour or two Thurs night.

ck
-- 
country doc in louisiana
(no fancy sayings right now)

Charles Krin

>My take on it is that the "Hoax" is on the folks who figure that a
>woman who prostitutes herself for only one man . . .is somehow better than a
woman who studies to improve herself in order to be able to keep the
>financial attentions of multiple men.

Bill

Ok, I get it now. But here's the thing.

You don't pay a prostitue for sex. You pay her to leave afterwards.
Socks

On 21 Dec 2004 11:28:24 -0800, "Puppet_Sock" <puppet_sock@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Ok, I get it now. But here's the thing.
>
>You don't pay a prostitue for sex. You pay her to leave afterwards.

--
-denny-

Some people are offence kleptomaniacs -- whenever they see
an offence that isn't nailed down, they take it ;-)
--David C. Pugh, in alt.callahans

David M. Silver wrote:
> 

Is Glory Road the only Heinlein where a young (Oscar is only a couple of years older than many of the Juvie heros) hero is dumber than a doorknob? No hope of redemption through the graces of a good mentor? No obvious future development into an Ubermensh?

Good afternoon,

Hail, lal_truckee! We who are about to post salute you.

> Is Glory Road the only Heinlein where a young (Oscar is only a couple of
> years older than many of the Juvie heros) hero is dumber than a doorknob?
> No hope of redemption through the graces of a good mentor? No obvious
> future development into an Ubermensh?

It's been a few years since I read GR, so I can't say with certainty. But was he dumb, or was he out of his element? He demonstrated at least a limited knowledge of Latin, so he absorbed *something* in school.

Take care,

cb

-- 
Christopher A. Bohn                        ____________|____________
http://www.cse.ohio-state.edu/~bohn/        ' ** ** " (o) " ** ** ' 
   "I wish to God these calculations had been executed by steam!"
                                           - Charles Babbage

>Good afternoon,
>
>Hail, lal_truckee!  We who are about to post salute you.
>
>> Is Glory Road the only Heinlein where a young (Oscar is only a couple of
>> years older than many of the Juvie heros) hero is dumber than a doorknob?
>> No hope of redemption through the graces of a good mentor? No obvious
>> future development into an Ubermensh?
>
>Hmm... good question.  Certainly (almost?) all of them show their
>inexperience through poor judgment... but ignorance and
>inexperience *aren't* the same as unintelligent.  Hell, my youth
>demonstrates that quite well!
>
>It's been a few years since I read GR, so I can't say with certainty.  But
>was he dumb, or was he out of his element?  He demonstrated at least a
>limited knowledge of Latin, so he absorbed *something* in school.

hope that makes sense to someone.

-- 
~teresa~
 AFH Barwench

  ^..^  "Never try to outstubborn a cat."  Robert A. Heinlein  ^..^
   http://pixelmeow.com/  http://www.heinleinsociety.org/
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       email my first name at pixelmeow dot com

Good evening,

Hail, pixelmeow! We who are about to post salute you.

>>It's been a few years since I read GR, so I can't say with certainty. 
>>But was he [Oscar] dumb, or was he out of his element?  He demonstrated
>>at least a limited knowledge of Latin, so he absorbed *something* in
>>school.
> 
> I definitely got the impression that he felt out of his element.  At
> least, that's what I'm remembering: it has been a while since I read it,
> also.  I found myself thinking that he was very naive, in a way, and
> that he was (what's the word) yes, inexperienced, but he didn't consider
> himself that way (who of us ever does??), he *thought* he was more
> world-wise (still can't think of how to put this), and then Star walked
> into his life and kicked his hobby horse right out from under him.  I
> think he was totally overwhelmed by her, in so many ways, and a lot of
> his actions have that feel of the young person trying to "show" the
> older person that "yes I can SO do it!"
> 
> I hope that makes sense to someone.

Take care,
cb

-- 
Christopher A. Bohn                        ____________|____________
http://www.cse.ohio-state.edu/~bohn/        ' ** ** " (o) " ** ** ' 
   "I wish to God these calculations had been executed by steam!"

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 01:34:53 GMT, in alt.fan.heinlein, Engr Bohn
<EngrBohn@GeeMAIL.noEE.com> scribbled:

>Good evening,
>
>Hail, pixelmeow!  We who are about to post salute you.
>
>>>It's been a few years since I read GR, so I can't say with certainty. 
>>>But was he [Oscar] dumb, or was he out of his element?  He demonstrated
>>>at least a limited knowledge of Latin, so he absorbed *something* in
>>>school.
>> 
>> I definitely got the impression that he felt out of his element.  At
>> least, that's what I'm remembering: it has been a while since I read it,
>> also.  I found myself thinking that he was very naive, in a way, and
>> that he was (what's the word) yes, inexperienced, but he didn't consider
>> himself that way (who of us ever does??), he *thought* he was more
>> world-wise (still can't think of how to put this), and then Star walked
>> into his life and kicked his hobby horse right out from under him.  I
>> think he was totally overwhelmed by her, in so many ways, and a lot of
>> his actions have that feel of the young person trying to "show" the
>> older person that "yes I can SO do it!"
>> 
>> I hope that makes sense to someone.
>
>Makes sense to me -- let's call it Betty Sorenson Syndrome (for she
>embodies it so well).  Delusions of worldliness?

-- 
~teresa~
 AFH Barwench

    ^..^  "Never try to outstubborn a cat."  Robert A. Heinlein  ^..^
    http://www.heinleinsociety.org/    http://pixelmeow.com/  
    http://pixelmeow.com/Book_Exchange/index.htm
    http://www.storesonline.com/site/rowanmystic/
    aim: pixelmeow  msn:pixelmeow@passport.com
    my first name at pixelmeow dot com

Pixelmeow:

>he was very naive, in a way,
>and that he was (what's the word) yes, inexperienced, but he didn't
>consider himself that way (who of us ever does??), he *thought* he was
>more world-wise (still can't think of how to put this), and then Star
>walked into his life and kicked his hobby horse right out from under
>him.  

Bill

On 23 Dec 2004 01:50:14 GMT, in alt.fan.heinlein, bpral22169@aol.com
(BPRAL22169) scribbled:

>Pixelmeow:
>
>>he was very naive, in a way,
>>and that he was (what's the word) yes, inexperienced, but he didn't
>>consider himself that way (who of us ever does??), he *thought* he was
>>more world-wise (still can't think of how to put this), and then Star
>>walked into his life and kicked his hobby horse right out from under
>>him.  
>
>Umm-- yeah.  There's a bit early on that's kind of creepy that I think
>foreshadows the  bit about the Dorals' hospitality, where he can't bring
>himself to bed the "little brown sisters" (quoting from memory) that show's
>he's culturally rigid in a way that suggests a lack of real life-experience --
>and also, in a way, prepares us for his realization about the great hoax being
>important to him, possibly even shattering.
>Bill

<feels good to be talking about one of my favorites!>

-- 
~teresa~
 AFH Barwench

    ^..^  "Never try to outstubborn a cat."  Robert A. Heinlein  ^..^
    http://www.heinleinsociety.org/    http://pixelmeow.com/  
    http://pixelmeow.com/Book_Exchange/index.htm
    http://www.storesonline.com/site/rowanmystic/
    aim: pixelmeow  msn:pixelmeow@passport.com
    my first name at pixelmeow dot com

Pixelmeow

>I feel like he never really loses it, all the
>way.  

Bill

On 23 Dec 2004 15:43:56 GMT, in alt.fan.heinlein, bpral22169@aol.com
(BPRAL22169) wrote:

>Pixelmeow
>
>>I feel like he never really loses it, all the
>>way.  
>
>Well, perhaps that makes him a bit American. . . 

-- 
~teresa~
 AFH Barwench

  ^..^  "Never try to outstubborn a cat."  Robert A. Heinlein  ^..^
   http://pixelmeow.com/  http://www.heinleinsociety.org/
     http://pixelmeow.com/Book_Exchange/index.htm
     http://www.storesonline.com/site/rowanmystic
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       email my first name at pixelmeow dot com

Pixelmeow

>>>I feel like he never really loses it, all the
>>>way.  
>>
>>Well, perhaps that makes him a bit American. . . 
>
>*snerk*

Hey, now! That's the GOOD part about Americans...
Bill

BPRAL22169 wrote:
> Pixelmeow:
> 
> 
>> he was very naive, in a way, and that he was (what's the word)
>> yes, inexperienced, but he didn't consider himself that way
>> (who of us ever does??), he *thought* he was more world-wise
>> (still can't think of how to put this), and then Star walked
>> into his life and kicked his hobby horse right out from under 
>> him.
> 
> 
> Umm-- yeah.  There's a bit early on that's kind of creepy that I
> think foreshadows the  bit about the Dorals' hospitality, where
> he can't bring himself to bed the "little brown sisters" (quoting
> from memory) that show's he's culturally rigid in a way that
> suggests a lack of real life-experience 

"I was a hundred and ninety pounds of muscle and no fat, and I could 
never convince myself that a female four feet ten inches tall and 
weighing less than ninety pounds and looking twelve years old is in 
fact a freely consenting adult. To me it felt like a grim sort of 
statutory rape and produced psychic impotence."

This doesn't sound "culturally rigid" to me. He just doesn't share a delight in "statutory rape" of "children".

YMMV,
Rufe

Dr. Rufo

>Oscar says the reason he has trouble with bedding the 
>"little brown sisters" is not because they're brown but because 
>they're little. 

It functioned for me as foreshadowing.

Thinking about it in light of our recent discussion of Mary Lou Martin's psychopathology, I'd say that Scar is putting one of his own on display very early on, when he admits that he is unable to treat an adult as an adult.

A post-colonial theorist would go on to point out that this is symbolic of colonial power rape of subordinated peoples -- but _I_ wouldn't go there, no.
Bill

On 23 Dec 2004 15:53:10 GMT, in alt.fan.heinlein, bpral22169@aol.com
(BPRAL22169) wrote:

>Dr. Rufo
>
>>Oscar says the reason he has trouble with bedding the 
>>"little brown sisters" is not because they're brown but because 
>>they're little. 
>
>Possibly -- but I never quite believed him, not entirely, not 100%, and that 
>phrase caused me to be alert that EC Gordon's internal life was not as simple
>and unproblematic as he represents it (i.e. that he was a more complex
>character than he represented himself to be -- and that his novelistic story
>might have something to do with what he knows/does not know about himself).  So
>when we got to the Doral episode, I was prepared for it.  
>
>It functioned for me as foreshadowing.
>
>Thinking about it in light of our recent discussion of Mary Lou Martin's
>psychopathology, I'd say that Scar is putting one of his own on display very
>early on, when he admits that he is unable to treat an adult as an adult.  
>
>A post-colonial theorist would go on to point out that this is symbolic of
>colonial power rape of subordinated peoples -- but _I_ wouldn't go there, no.
>Bill

I also don't know about the "little brown sister" part; is that a euphemism of some sort or just that he thought of them as "little sisters" because they were smaller than him and therefore his little sisters, sortof?

-- 
~teresa~
 AFH Barwench

  ^..^  "Never try to outstubborn a cat."  Robert A. Heinlein  ^..^
   http://pixelmeow.com/  http://www.heinleinsociety.org/
     http://pixelmeow.com/Book_Exchange/index.htm
     http://www.storesonline.com/site/rowanmystic
      aim: pixelmeow msn: pixelmeow@passport.com
       email my first name at pixelmeow dot com

In article <l0sls0pan020i67b68fdfeq18qhp9s8a6r@4ax.com>,
 pixelmeow <GMUESSJDRYND@spammotel.com> wrote:

> I also don't know about the "little brown sister" part; is that a
> euphemism of some sort or just that he thought of them as "little
> sisters" because they were smaller than him and therefore his little
> sisters, sortof?

In any event, "Little Brown Brother" resisted "Benevolent Assimilation" and acquired a bad habit, for a time, of coming out of the brush and attacking American troops with bolos and whatever else came to hand, whenever they could. Pacification took a while longer than McKinley lasted.

The U.S. troops didn't exactly share McKinley's official sentiments one hundred percent. They had a little marching song they sang during the Insurrection.

   "Damn, damn, damn the Filipinos,
      God-damned Khakiac ladrones,
    Underneath the starry flag,
      Civilize them with a Krag,
    And return us to our dear and happy homes!

-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
     Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
     Lt.(jg), USN, R'td

In article <20041223105310.08355.00002396@mb-m04.aol.com>,
 bpral22169@aol.com (BPRAL22169) wrote:

> Dr. Rufo
> 
> >Oscar says the reason he has trouble with bedding the 
> >"little brown sisters" is not because they're brown but because 
> >they're little. 
> 
> Possibly -- but I never quite believed him, not entirely, not 100%, and that 
> phrase caused me to be alert that EC Gordon's internal life was not as simple
> and unproblematic as he represents it (i.e. that he was a more complex
> character than he represented himself to be -- and that his novelistic story
> might have something to do with what he knows/does not know about himself).  
> So
> when we got to the Doral episode, I was prepared for it.  
> 
> It functioned for me as foreshadowing.
> 
> Thinking about it in light of our recent discussion of Mary Lou Martin's
> psychopathology, I'd say that Scar is putting one of his own on display very
> early on, when he admits that he is unable to treat an adult as an adult.  
> 
> A post-colonial theorist would go on to point out that this is symbolic of
> colonial power rape of subordinated peoples -- but _I_ wouldn't go there, no.
> Bill

But there is a post-colonialism angst in that reference, which isn't such a surprise for a Missouri-born author, with favorite son Twain "Sitting in the Darkness," Camp Funston just up the road, and Willie Grayson whose first shot started that Insurrection coming from Kansas just next door.

-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
     Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
     Lt.(jg), USN, R'td

BPRAL22169 wrote:
> Dr. Rufo
> 
> 
>> Oscar says the reason he has trouble with bedding the "little
>> brown sisters" is not because they're brown but because they're
>> little.
> 
> 
> Possibly -- but I never quite believed him, not entirely, not
> 100%, and that phrase caused me to be alert that EC Gordon's
> internal life was not as simple and unproblematic as he
> represents it (i.e. that he was a more complex character than he
> represented himself to be -- and that his novelistic story might
> have something to do with what he knows/does not know about
> himself).  So when we got to the Doral episode, I was prepared
> for it.
> 
> It functioned for me as foreshadowing.
> 
> Thinking about it in light of our recent discussion of Mary Lou
> Martin's psychopathology, I'd say that Scar is putting one of his
> own on display very early on, when he admits that he is unable to
> treat an adult as an adult.
> 
> A post-colonial theorist would go on to point out that this is
> symbolic of colonial power rape of subordinated peoples -- but
> _I_ wouldn't go there, no. Bill
> 

There are others who have no problems with choosing sexual partners who are petite and/or very young -- the very notable Roman, Lucius Licinius Lucullus comes to mind. Lucullus' friends noted his predilection but did not share in it. Whyso must Oscar?

>Bill, please don't take offense, but I think you're taking this 
>point at more than face value.

However, that really doesn't mean any more than it raised a flag for me when I read it and functioned for me as foreshadowing.
Bill

"BPRAL22169" writes:
> Dr. Rufo
>
>>Bill, please don't take offense, but I think you're taking this
>>point at more than face value.
>
> Well, yeah -- its face value doesn't make face-value sense.  There's 
> some kind
> of compulsion-disorder thing going on here, since Scar is telling us
> point-blank that his emotional reaction didn't tally perfectly with 
> his
> contemporaneous understanding of his circumstances.  Bottom line is, 
> his
> emotions insisted that an adult was a child, so he's face-value 
> telling us he's
> got emotional problems in this area.
>
> However, that really doesn't mean any more than it raised a flag for 
> me when I
> read it and functioned for me as foreshadowing.
> Bill
>

I know an ex-airman who, along with a couple of other guys, rather than spend their off-time bedding the locals, spent their time and money helping out the local orphans with food and shoes. I have seen the pictures of the orphans and their benefactors.

E!

TreetopAngel

>So, any person who does not partake of the native ladies has emotional 
>problems? 

Bill

In article <20041224093255.08186.00002468@mb-m05.aol.com>,
bpral22169@aol.com (BPRAL22169) wrote:

> TreetopAngel
> 
> >So, any person who does not partake of the native ladies has emotional 
> >problems? 
> 
> No, but any person who reacts to a class of people as if they were 
> something
> other than they were has emotional problems (in at least the limited 
> sense that
> his emotions and intellectual awareness are out of sync).
> Bill
> 

This becomes an interesting challenge of value judgement. For example, it seems fairly clear that the Doral's entire society regarded impregnation by a Hero as highly desirable, and even the involvement of the youngest seemed enthusiastically consensual. There was no implication of child abuse.

Now, let us assume that Oscar is known to have some medical knowledge, superior to that of the Doral. The Doral's culture includes female infibulation. The Doral, being enlightened, asks Oscar to perform the procedure on the youngest, confident it will be safer in his hands.

Emotional disturbance or acceptance of cultural diversity? And on whose part, if Oscar accepts or refuses the request?

Howard Berkowitz

Scar reacts to adult asian women as if they were children. That is, other than what they are. While Scar's idea of how children are treated vs. adults is culturally conditioned, it's not his cultural conditioning that is at issue here.
Bill

In article <20041228105302.21555.00002443@mb-m11.aol.com>,
bpral22169@aol.com (BPRAL22169) wrote:

> Howard Berkowitz
> 
> Scar reacts to adult asian women as if they were children.  That is, 
> other than
> what they are.  While Scar's idea of how children are treated vs. adults 
> is
> culturally conditioned, it's not his cultural conditioning that is at 
> issue
> here.
> Bill
> 

From memory, it was the Littlest Doralette that was concerning him -- he appreciated the older daughter and the wife. That _does_ sound like he was making a rational distinction, in that society, between what he perceived as child (abuse) and consenting adults. In other words, he was not confusing the older Doralettes with Asian women perceived as children.

The key cultural concept that he missed was the Littlest Doralette was not, in the sexual mores of the Doral culture, a child.

In article <hcb-4DA846.12121928122004@news-central.giganews.com>,
 Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com> wrote:

> In article <20041228105302.21555.00002443@mb-m11.aol.com>,
> bpral22169@aol.com (BPRAL22169) wrote:
> 
> > Howard Berkowitz
> > 
> > Scar reacts to adult asian women as if they were children.  That is, 
> > other than
> > what they are.  While Scar's idea of how children are treated vs. adults 
> > is
> > culturally conditioned, it's not his cultural conditioning that is at 
> > issue
> > here.
> > Bill
> > 
> 
> Further clarification then. Are you focused on his attitude toward adult 
> Asian women as they exist on his Earth, or on Doral-females with some 
> similar attributes. 
> 
> From memory, it was the Littlest Doralette that was concerning him -- he 
> appreciated the older daughter and the wife. That _does_ sound like he 
> was making a rational distinction, in that society, between what he 
> perceived as child (abuse) and consenting adults. In other words, he was 
> not confusing the older Doralettes with Asian women perceived as 
> children.
> 
> The key cultural concept that he missed was the Littlest Doralette was 
> not, in the sexual mores of the Doral culture, a child.

-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
     Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
     Lt.(jg), USN, R'td

In article <ag.plusone-6D5238.09543228122004@individual.net>, "David M.
Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:

> In article <hcb-4DA846.12121928122004@news-central.giganews.com>,
>  Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com> wrote:
> 
> > In article <20041228105302.21555.00002443@mb-m11.aol.com>,
> > bpral22169@aol.com (BPRAL22169) wrote:
> > 
> > > Howard Berkowitz
> > > 
> > > Scar reacts to adult asian women as if they were children.  That is, 
> > > other than
> > > what they are.  While Scar's idea of how children are treated vs. 
> > > adults 
> > > is
> > > culturally conditioned, it's not his cultural conditioning that is at 
> > > issue
> > > here.
> > > Bill
> > > 
> > 
> > Further clarification then. Are you focused on his attitude toward 
> > adult 
> > Asian women as they exist on his Earth, or on Doral-females with some 
> > similar attributes. 
> > 
> > From memory, it was the Littlest Doralette that was concerning him -- 
> > he 
> > appreciated the older daughter and the wife. That _does_ sound like he 
> > was making a rational distinction, in that society, between what he 
> > perceived as child (abuse) and consenting adults. In other words, he 
> > was 
> > not confusing the older Doralettes with Asian women perceived as 
> > children.
> > 
> > The key cultural concept that he missed was the Littlest Doralette was 
> > not, in the sexual mores of the Doral culture, a child.
> 
> And it's fairly clear from the way that Star teases him about her in 
> regard to a potential visit by the Dorals to Center, in the last third 
> of the book, during their long pillow talk, that his cultural 
> inhibitions went out the window with the Littlest Doralette in his 
> second visit to the honor of the Doral's Bed.

David M. Silver wrote:
  < snip >

> And it's fairly clear from the way that Star teases him about her in 
> regard to a potential visit by the Dorals to Center, in the last third 
> of the book, during their long pillow talk, that his cultural 
> inhibitions went out the window with the Littlest Doralette in his 
> second visit to the honor of the Doral's Bed.
> 

MY reading is Star is teasing Oscar because Oscar couldn't handle the appearance of the Littlest Bare in Nevia -- so would he do better in Center?

Of course, YMMV.

Rufe

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:54:32 -0800,  an orbital mind-control laser
caused "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> to write:

>In article <hcb-4DA846.12121928122004@news-central.giganews.com>,
> Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <20041228105302.21555.00002443@mb-m11.aol.com>,
>> bpral22169@aol.com (BPRAL22169) wrote:
>> 
>> > Howard Berkowitz
>> > 
>> > Scar reacts to adult asian women as if they were children.  That is, 
>> > other than
>> > what they are.  While Scar's idea of how children are treated vs. adults 
>> > is
>> > culturally conditioned, it's not his cultural conditioning that is at 
>> > issue
>> > here.
>> > Bill
>> > 
>> 
>> Further clarification then. Are you focused on his attitude toward adult 
>> Asian women as they exist on his Earth, or on Doral-females with some 
>> similar attributes. 
>> 
>> From memory, it was the Littlest Doralette that was concerning him -- he 
>> appreciated the older daughter and the wife. That _does_ sound like he 
>> was making a rational distinction, in that society, between what he 
>> perceived as child (abuse) and consenting adults. In other words, he was 
>> not confusing the older Doralettes with Asian women perceived as 
>> children.
>> 
>> The key cultural concept that he missed was the Littlest Doralette was 
>> not, in the sexual mores of the Doral culture, a child.
>
>And it's fairly clear from the way that Star teases him about her in 
>regard to a potential visit by the Dorals to Center, in the last third 
>of the book, during their long pillow talk, that his cultural 
>inhibitions went out the window with the Littlest Doralette in his 
>second visit to the honor of the Doral's Bed.

On the way back to the Doral's place Oscar says "One... three... thirty--I'll die trying. But no little kids!" When they're riding out three days later, it's obvious that he spent a lot of time with Muri, the oldest daughter (and, one may presume, with Letva, her mother and quite possibly with several other ladies at House Doral) but *I* don't find any textual evidence that the went to bed with the Little Bare.

Star's teasing when they're in bed in Center could, just as easily, be reminding Oscar of his inhibition about small women, rather than of his amorous adventures in Nevia. The fact that she's *not* named, while the other two are says to me that she wasn't as important as Oscar's other lovers.

	-Chris Zakes
		Texas

I came up here for a party, and what happens? Nothing! Not even ice cream.
The gods looked down and laughed. This would be a better world for 
children if the parents had to eat the spinach.

		-Groucho Marx, "Animal Crackers"

>From: Chris Zakes

>Star's teasing when they're in bed in Center could, just as easily, be
>reminding Oscar of his inhibition about small women, rather than of
>his amorous adventures in Nevia. The fact that she's *not* named,
>while the other two are says to me that she wasn't as important as
>Oscar's other lovers.

--
Stephanie
http://hometown.aol.com/merfilly27/myhomepage/profile.html

Howard Berkowitz

Qmykeyboard is going on th fritZ

Hasnothing to do with any other culture--only what Zcar evidenec sbout his internal life

Bill

On 28 Dec 2004 21:40:10 GMT, bpral22169@aol.com (BPRAL22169) wrote:

>
>QmykeyboardisgoingonthfritZ

--
-denny-

Some people are offence kleptomaniacs -- whenever they see
an offence that isn't nailed down, they take it ;-)
--David C. Pugh, in alt.callahans

"BPRAL22169" <bpral22169@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041228105302.21555.00002443@mb-m11.aol.com...
> Howard Berkowitz
>
> Scar reacts to adult asian women as if they were children.  That is, other than
> what they are.  While Scar's idea of how children are treated vs. adults is
> culturally conditioned, it's not his cultural conditioning that is at issue
> here.
> Bill

LNC

lNC

my keyboard ics going out

this was idecommntrescar'spsychology
Bill

"BPRAL22169" <bpral22169@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041228164250.16056.00002502@mb-m02.aol.com...
> lNC
> mykeyboardicsgoingout
>
> thiswasidecommntrescar'spsychology
> Bill

LNC

LNC

>Keyboard, my ass. Get the fuck out of the leftover eggnog and go to WalMart.
>Keyboards are five bucks.

Bill

On 29 Dec 2004 16:01:01 GMT, in alt.fan.heinlein, bpral22169@aol.com
(BPRAL22169) wrote:

>LNC
>
>>Keyboard, my ass. Get the fuck out of the leftover eggnog and go to WalMart.
>>Keyboards are five bucks.
>
>Hehe, I want your Walmart to shop at.  I couldn't get a USB keyboard and had to
>settle for an os/2 ($23) that locked up my mouse when I plugged it in so I
>couldn't click "next" on the driver install.
>Bill

-- 
~teresa~
 AFH Barwench

  ^..^  "Never try to outstubborn a cat."  Robert A. Heinlein  ^..^
   http://pixelmeow.com/  http://www.heinleinsociety.org/
     http://pixelmeow.com/Book_Exchange/index.htm
     http://www.storesonline.com/site/rowanmystic
      aim: pixelmeow msn: pixelmeow@passport.com
       email my first name at pixelmeow dot com

"pixelmeow" <GMUESSJDRYND@spammotel.com> wrote in message
news:65n5t0pa7tt7fvojec6r4v16u271jlmvi0@4ax.com...
> On 29 Dec 2004 16:01:01 GMT, in alt.fan.heinlein, bpral22169@aol.com
> (BPRAL22169) wrote:
>
> >LNC
> >
> >>Keyboard, my ass. Get the fuck out of the leftover eggnog and go to WalMart.
> >>Keyboards are five bucks.
> >
> >Hehe, I want your Walmart to shop at.  I couldn't get a USB keyboard and had to
> >settle for an os/2 ($23) that locked up my mouse when I plugged it in so I
> >couldn't click "next" on the driver install.
> >Bill
>
> Oh good grief.  Don't you just love that sort of thing?  :-(

LNC

>
>"pixelmeow" <GMUESSJDRYND@spammotel.com> wrote in message
>news:65n5t0pa7tt7fvojec6r4v16u271jlmvi0@4ax.com...
>> On 29 Dec 2004 16:01:01 GMT, in alt.fan.heinlein, bpral22169@aol.com
>> (BPRAL22169) wrote:
>>
>> >LNC
>> >
>> >>Keyboard, my ass. Get the fuck out of the leftover eggnog and go to WalMart.
>> >>Keyboards are five bucks.
>> >
>> >Hehe, I want your Walmart to shop at.  I couldn't get a USB keyboard and had to
>> >settle for an os/2 ($23) that locked up my mouse when I plugged it in so I
>> >couldn't click "next" on the driver install.
>> >Bill
>>
>> Oh good grief.  Don't you just love that sort of thing?  :-(
>
>Maybe now he's legible again he'll retype whatever that was he said that
>looked like "thiswasidecommntrescar'spsychology." Maybe he won't. Maybe
>he'll get a PS2 instead of an OS/2 keyboard. Maybe I'll install a Mac
>emulator on this machine and relive the good old days of Windows, 1984.
>Maybe I'll get this DVD burner to work before 2084. Maybe I'll quit typing
>random thoughts and send...

-- 
~teresa~
 AFH Barwench

  ^..^  "Never try to outstubborn a cat."  Robert A. Heinlein  ^..^
   http://pixelmeow.com/  http://www.heinleinsociety.org/
     http://pixelmeow.com/Book_Exchange/index.htm
     http://www.storesonline.com/site/rowanmystic
      aim: pixelmeow msn: pixelmeow@passport.com
       email my first name at pixelmeow dot com

"pixelmeow" <GMUESSJDRYND@spammotel.com> wrote in message
news:2806t0lgk6d6bf5rrlgjvfqd2ndlm6kt16@4ax.com...

> Guess that means it's your turn to go to Walmart?  I don't guess
> you'll get a DVD burner for anywhere near as cheap as a keyboard, but
> hey.  At least it isn't an AT keyboard.  ;-)

Someday, all this talk of parallel, serial, USB, Firewire, AT, XT, PS2, PCI, AGP, PCMCIA, SCSI will sound like a discussion of the best crank to use to start a Model T.

LNC

cmaj7dmin7 wrote:
  < snip >

> Someday, all this talk of parallel, serial, USB, Firewire, AT, XT, PS2, PCI,
> AGP, PCMCIA, SCSI will sound like a discussion of the best crank to use to
> start a Model T.

Rufe

In article <7iFAd.12098$RH4.3555@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
"Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote:

> cmaj7dmin7 wrote:
>   < snip >
> 
> > Someday, all this talk of parallel, serial, USB, Firewire, AT, XT, PS2, 
> > PCI,
> > AGP, PCMCIA, SCSI will sound like a discussion of the best crank to use 
> > to
> > start a Model T.
> 
> 	Just make certain you place your thumb parallel to the crank handle 
> 'cause the 'kick-back' when the engine starts up can easily break 
> it. < wEg >
> 
> Rufe

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:10:12 GMT, in alt.fan.heinlein, "cmaj7dmin7"
<reilloc@sbcglobal.net> scribbled:

>"pixelmeow" <GMUESSJDRYND@spammotel.com> wrote in message
>news:2806t0lgk6d6bf5rrlgjvfqd2ndlm6kt16@4ax.com...
>
>> Guess that means it's your turn to go to Walmart?  I don't guess
>> you'll get a DVD burner for anywhere near as cheap as a keyboard, but
>> hey.  At least it isn't an AT keyboard.  ;-)
>
>I've got the burner, I've got the software that's supposed to include the
>ripper, I just can't get anything to rip, video-wise.