|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
Return to Index
Here Begin The Postings
From: "Oscagne" <Oscagne@ev1.net>
Subject: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting-- _For Us the Living_ -- Jan 22, 24
Date: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 1:50 PM
The next RAH-AIM Readers Group chat topic will be _For_Us_the_Living_, scheduled
for January 22 and 24, 8pm and 4pm U.S. Central Time (respectively). Anyone
wishing to join us for the first time can find out how by visiting http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html#Info.
I apologize for waiting so long in organizing this one, but I thought it best to
wait for the dissipation of the hangovers caused by the confluence of the
holidays and transoceanic visitors.
_For_Us_the_Living_ finally came to us about a month ago, and we've only begun
hashing out the implications. One of the things that struck me in the hubbub
surrounding the publication, is that almost all of the critiques and other
peripheral material regarding FUTL has held the book to a different standard
that all of Heinlein's other work. Almost universally, the fan community has
said, "This is not a very good book, so let's not judge this work on its own
merits, let us judge it as a precursor to later works." Is this a fair way to
criticize this book, or are we changing our standards to coddle the memory of
(for most of us) our favorite author? If we are indeed coddling, do you think
RAH would approve?
Had this book been published when first written, do you imagine that RAH's
writing career would have been much changed?
-- Oscagne, High Priest of Skeptics and Cynics wanna read a story? http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/mss or see my goofy website? http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/webpage/home.htm The next Heinlein Readers Group chats will be: _For Us the Living_ on Thursday, January 22 at 8:00 p.m. central and Saturday, January 24 at 4:00 p.m. central. See http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html#info to participate.
From: "jeanette" <wolfj@webtv.net>
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting-- _For Us the Living_ --Jan...
Date: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 3:04 PM
I don't think RAH would have thought much of any criticism of the book if it had
somehow been published late in his career. He didn't want it published. I am
sure he would agree that it does not compare to his later books. I am happy to
have read it as a fan, but I would not recommend it to anyone except as a
curiosity.
It would be interesting to know how critics with a 1930's mind set would have
reacted, comparing it to what was available then. In my opinion science fiction
has become more interesting and Heinlein is one of the reasons.
Jeanette
From: "Mitch Wagner" <mitchw@sff.net>
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting-- _For Us the Living_ -- Jan 22,
24
Date: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 3:42 PM
On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:50:02 -0600, Oscagne wrote:
> _For_Us_the_Living_ finally came to us about a month ago, and we've only > begun hashing out the implications. One of the things that struck me in the > hubbub surrounding the publication, is that almost all of the critiques and > other peripheral material regarding FUTL has held the book to a different > standard that all of Heinlein's other work. Almost universally, the fan > community has said, "This is not a very good book, so let's not judge this > work on its own merits, let us judge it as a precursor to later works." Is > this a fair way to criticize this book, or are we changing our standards to > coddle the memory of (for most of us) our favorite author? If we are indeed > coddling, do you think RAH would approve? >
I don't think it's coddling -- it's just an accurate
perception. The book is fascinating for Heinlein enthusiasts and scholars. It
MIGHT be interesting for scholars and enthusiasts in other areas, too: the
history of the Depression, the American Left, science fiction in general (of
course), the Utopian novel.
But it's of virtually no interest to other people.
One newspaper review gave the novel a C+. I'd say that's an average of the two
grades the novel SHOULD have received; A+ for Heinlein enthusiasts, F for
everybody else.
> Had this book been published when first written, do you imagine that RAH's > writing career would have been much changed?
Mike the computer calculates that there's a 93%
probability, if FUTL had been published, the book would've sank like a rock, and
disappeared, read by very few people. Probably there'd be very few copies
surviving today, first editions would be collectors' items.
There's a 7 percent probability, however, that the book would've been picked up
as a bible by some social movement or another, and Heinlein might have had a
career as a very minor political figure.
-- Mitch Wagner * http://blog.mitchwagner.com/ * Asked by agents if he had anything else to tell them, Cusack responded: "Yes, I've got monkeys in my pants." -- CNN.com, Dec. 19, 2002
From: "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting-- _For Us the Living_ -- Jan 22,
24
Date: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 9:50 PM
In article <bthkio$7cqk4$1@ID-124148.news.uni-berlin.de>, "Oscagne" <Oscagne@ev1.net>
wrote:
> > _For_Us_the_Living_ finally came to us about a month ago, and we've only > begun hashing out the implications. One of the things that struck me in the > hubbub surrounding the publication, is that almost all of the critiques and > other peripheral material regarding FUTL has held the book to a different > standard that all of Heinlein's other work.
That of a previously never published, unedited and
uncritqued, first novel by a 29-year-old tyro formally educationed to be a naval
officer, prematurely retired for disability, who had knocked about for five
years at various jobs and following various interests, who later was awarded
seven Hugos (three retrospectively, so far . . . ), and the first Nebula Grand
Master for lifetime achievement?
I supposed some might say that's unfair, although I have some trouble discerning
why. My only explanation, for the sake of argument, is we expect our gods to
spring forth full-sized, adult and fully armored with their wisdom from Zeus'
tired cranium. We forget what a six or seven-year-old looks like the first time
on a bicycle. Wobbly, frightened and, to a parent, very frightening. We forget
also that many, if not most, six or seven-year-olds fall the first time and
never willingly get back up on the bicycle until they are older.
> Almost universally, the fan > community has said, "This is not a very good book, so let's not judge this > work on its own merits, let us judge it as a precursor to later works."
I'd disagree. Those who have thought about it have said, at worst,
>"this isn't a very good SF novel by contemporary standards."
But they've also noted history and said the contemporary standards are what they are today in very large part because of what this writer did in an amazingly short time after he found his stride in writing an entertaining "story" after his first effort was rejected. And then they turn and look back over FUTL for signs of that nascent ability to satisfy contemporary standards.
> Is this a fair way to criticize this book, or are we changing our standards to > coddle the memory of (for most of us) our favorite author?
Reservations aside ["coddle the memory"?] as to why
some have said "let us judge it as precursor," I think it fair to judge it by
the standards of 1938.
Let's see: what did we have in 1938 in the "scientification" form for long
fiction?
What were the standards then existing?
We had examples of utopic long fiction -- Edward Bellamy's _Looking Backward
From 2000 to 1887_, or Herbert George Wells' _When the Sleeper Awakes_ are two
examples, both of which are available on Gutenberg. None of which, not so by the
way, are in what we consider today as the "novel" form. They uniformly lack the
"story" element we demand today and are, what RAH himself in 1947 said they
were, merely lectures cloaked in fiction guise. That's all they've ever been
since Francis Bacon wrote the first one.
We had the space opera romance -- Edward Elmer "Doc" Smith's first written
Lensman SF story, _Galactic Patrol_, had just been serialized in Astounding from
September 1937 through February 1938. Doc Smith's fiction today is said to be,
among other things, "cliche-ridden," or as using "tired old themes." Dr. Smith,
however, invented many of these themes. It is his imitators who made them tired
old cliches. They were often totally new when he wrote them. Doc Smith also, it
is said by some, populated his stories with _unrealistic_ heroes, "athletic,
very intelligent, very gallant" men, often linked or "married to a remarkably
beautiful, intelligent red-haired" women. Heh. "Kimball Kinnison" and "Clarissa
MacDougal." Heh, again. Of course, as RAH himself pointed out, E.E. Smith was a
large, blond, athletic, very intelligent, very gallant man, married to a
remarkably beautiful, intelligent red-haired woman named MacDougal. [----> This
is me walking away from that point before it pierces me to the root like an
April shower.]
I can go on about the lack of today's cultural sensibilities to the plights of
women and minorities perceived by reviewers today in both the old classic utopic
and the space opera form then contemporaneously being created by Smith, but I
won't yet.
What else did we have in *long* fiction form that has survived as worth reading
and is read today in the "scientification" field? Anyone? _Odd John_? Does
someone who's read it care to describe it? It's in part another utopic type,
isn't it? What else?
By what standards do we judge these previous works? By those contemporary to
today? Okay, judge them that way too, if we're going to judge Heinlein's FUTL by
those standards. If not, then judge Heinlein the way we judge them. Chaucer
today is a trite as an "April shower," and have you ever struggled to read the
Middle English? The Wif of Bath is insensitive as she can be to today's feminist
sensibilities. And don't get me started on "'Tee-hee,' sayde shee." Children do
read here.
> If we are indeed > coddling, do you think RAH would approve? >
I don't think it coddling to judge fiction against
standards of its own time. I don't think we should restrict our judgment
exclusively to those standards either; but I haven't seen a critique that really
says much that is beyond the obvious trying to apply other standards.
Frex, Gary Wolfe, one of two reviewers in the latest issue of _Locus_,
encapsulates his description of the book as follows:
". . . begins with a classic when-the-sleeper wakes scenario, pauses for what at times is an archaically charming critique of late-1930s mores and sensibilities, and then races impatiently toward pendatic unreadibility."
Locus, January 2004, at 19. E.g., the "brain-eater"
or whatever the null-content phrase is they love so dearly over on RASFW.
IOW, as one familar with the utopic form might have expected, there ain't as
much entertainment as we have come to expect in 2004 from what Spider Robinson
calls the "story" here folks. But have you ever read much of H.G. Wells? Try to
stay awake sometime reading either of the two utopic works cited above for
entertainment some time. I remember plowing through Wells' _A Modern Utopia_ the
first time. Zzzzzz. Read the chapter on the Samuari so I might understand _Space
Cadet_ a bit better, and promised myself I'd read the rest later. I did, but it
was a while later.
Yet then there is the "archaically charming critique" pauses of what Wolfe
thinks are merely those archaic late-1930 mores and sensibilities. And if you
engage your mind, the Social Credit theories are challenging. I was amazed to
read reports of a Peter Uberoth speech during the recent late-nite comedy hour
we here in California presented for the amusement of the rest of the world under
the guise of a gubernatorial recall election, which sounded as if Uberoth was
actually presenting a truncated part of that theory as solution to California's
economy problems. But there's not much "entertainment" in that, is there? In
fact, as the Robinson forward to FUTL points out, it's hot up there on the
soapbox, you have to shout at the top of your lungs to be heard over the babble,
and your throat gets tired. You have to sell your birthright for a pot of
message that no one listens to very hard. Yet we still read Wells, and Bellamy,
and Voltaire and all the way back to Bacon -- but not for "entertainment," some
of us.
> Had this book been published when first written, do you imagine that RAH's > writing career would have been much changed?
Had this book been published when first written, in a
form anything close to it as first written, our world might have changed a bit
more than we think. Whether Heinlein's writing career would have continued is
another question. He probably would have been prosecuted for indecency and
sending pornography through the mails, along with his publisher and whatever
editor who put his talent into helping Heinlein turn it into a marketable work,
so it wasn't. The Social Credit people to whom Heinlein also sent the work for
an evaluation didn't publish it either: one doubts somehow that they were
interested in the "archaically charming critique" of social mores and attitudes.
Of course, that's the voice we recognize when we read it. Archaic and charming
though it may be, that's the voice we next hear in "Life-Line," lambasting,
among others, "the good sense and persuasive personality of 'America's
Handsomest University President'," from the forelock of his beautiful white
hair, the pocket of his smartly tailored trousers, to his women's-club manner,
satisfied with ever enhancing his reputation as an intellectual leader. What was
his name? President Rufus B. Von Kleinsmid of the University of Southern
California, then and today known widely and mainly as a football factory? Nah,
musta been some other guy.
That's the voice that entertains us.
If published in 1938, it either would have emerged from editing as a pure
political tract utopic fiction, sans the nudity and sexual relationships (and
probably much of the "archaically charming critique"); or it would have had to
be brought out in Europe by the Olympia Press; and there wasn't time in 1938 for
much of a splash to have been made there before September 1, 1939. Imagine what
the censors of the Third Reich would have had to say about its degenerate form
shortly following the day the Wehrmacht marched under the Arch of Triumph in
Paris. I don't imagine Heinlein would have wanted to be living in exile in Paris
that day; and I can't imagine him chosing to do so, in any event.
But, by all means, let's criticize it by any standard we wish -- maybe we'll all
learn something. That's what the reading group is for.
In a second review that appears in this month's _Locus_, under "Reviews by
Divers Hands," by Russell Letson, what is noted is:
"It's remarkable that so much of the mature writer can be found in this first, mostly unsuccessful book: a solid, unshakeable rationalism: a willingness to build scenes around lectures (which can be lucid and interesting); a Shavian delight in tweaking conventional social attitudes; and a breezy, middle-American way with the language." Ibid., at 31.
I agree with Mr. Letson that FUTL "may be a book mainly for researchers and enthusiasts, but it's an extraordinarily valuable one, a document showing a crucial point in the process of Heinlein the man becoming Heinlein the writer." Id.
-- David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!" Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88
From: "Davis, Joel" <jdavis@ball.com>
To: "David Wright" <dwrighsr@alltel.net>
Subject: RE: Upcoming RAH-AIM Readers Group January 22 and 24
Date: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 7:50 PM
It's worth noting that after its first submission, Heinlein himself never
attempt to have it published.
Joel S. Davis
Joel S. Davis, Chief Scientist Ball Aerospace Systems Engineering Solutions
From: Kate Gladstone (kate@global2000.net)
Subject: they say FOR US, THE LIVING will include a Rev.
Nehemiah Scudder but NOT the tyrant of REVOLT IN 2100
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2003-09-29 22:38:53 PST
As some of us learned at Torcon,
/a/ the lost-then-found Heinlein novel FOR US, THE LIVING (which I *won't*
abbreviate to FUTL because my mind's ear persistently hears FUTL as "futile"!)
will have a character called "Rev. Nehemiah Scudder" BUT
...
/b/ this Scudder will greatly differ from the person of the same name in
published R.A.H works (REVOLT IN 2000/LOGIC OF EMPIRE).
Can those happy few who've already seen FOR US tell me (privately), whether my
following speculations/inferences come close to the mark?
WILL THE REAL NEHEMIAH SCUDDER PLEASE STAND UP?
From knowing that the FOR US Scudder differs from the IF THIS GOES ON man,
and from some of R.A.H.'s in-print descriptions of fictional clergyfolk/churches
that differed in many ways from the nastiness of the IF THIS GOES ON Scudder &
his creed,
I speculate that we will see the following hold true for the Scudder in FOR US,
THE LIVING:
/1/ FOR US's Reverend Scudder & his church, I suspect, will (as part of
Heinlein's 1939 dream of a future society) preach/practice/represent a
belief-system that Heinlein approved/found beneficial - not necessarily a creed
that Heinlein would have "believed in"
(at least, not in the sense of "religious belief" as "sign-on-the-dotted-line-that-you-hereby-swear-to-always-think-that-this-
creed-completely-and-accurately-represents-reality-now-and-forever"),
but a creed that he'd have regarded as
/a/ well worth believing in (beneficial to the believer & to those around
him/her), and
/b/ devoid of serious (or any) ill effects for the individual/group that
believed it, the society that included people believing in it, etc.
/2/ the creed/religious practices of FOR US's Scudder (and of the church that he
represents) will (I speculate) contain at least one (and probably more than one)
of the following:
/a/ nude worship (I very much expect to see that people going to church in FOR
US behave like people going to church in the "naked-Fundie-eye-for-an-eye"
universe briefly visited in NUMBER OF THE BEAST - ... they arrive in their best
attire, then disrobe in an anteroom before worship)
/b/ sex not considered sinful as long as nobody gets hurt, and sexual ignorance
therefore not (to say the least) considered a virtue. (I'd expect, for instance,
that Sunday-school at the FOR US Scudder church may very well include detailed
sex-education, up to and including show-and-tell/live-action laboratory-work.)
/c/ Similarly, I'd expect the FOR US church(es) to view sex as a sacrament, as
in later Heinlein fiction - cf. ritual sex in STRANGER (Fosterite inner-circle
members, "growing closer" in Mike Smith's Church of All Worlds) and (less
famously) in JOB: A COMEDY OF JUSTICE whose sub-title does very clearly call to
mind the sub-title of FOR US, THE LIVING: A COMEDY OF CUSTOMS.
(Recall the final portions of JOB - depicting life in a new-and-improved,
kinder-and-gentler universe - where Alex, Marga, and their children join a
church pastored by a "Rev. M. O. Loch" whose name suggests the Canaanite god
Moloch - Canaanite religion involved a lot of sex. Like any self-respecting
Canaanite temple, Rev. Loch's church not only features celebratory sex in
rituals, but also includes in its hierarchy an order of sacred prostitutes,
whose vocation the flock deems not only valid but highly admirable: Alex
mentions (as praiseworthy) that his teen-aged daughter aspires to join this
order. So I suspect that celebratory sex will feature eminently in
rituals/ministry of the religion(s) portrayed in FOR US, THE LIVING.
/d/ core beliefs of the FOR US Scudder church will (I suspect) include what one
might call "Heinlein ethics/pragmatics," including skepticism/critical thinking
about ALL matters questionable by a human nervous system ... including
(especially) matters concerning the church/creed/religion itself.
E.g., I expect that key commandments/teachings/sacred texts of the FOR US
Scudder church will strikingly resemble one or more of the following -
--- the NOTEBOOKS OF LAZARUS LONG (particularly those Notebook entries exhorting
skepticism/criticism along with close attention to the facts of the universe!)
--- Heinlein's "This I Believe" radio-talk and other things he said/wrote about
the importance of working honestly, protecting women and children, "paying it
forward," etc.
--- statements on belief/morals/philosophy/critical thinking/"Fair
Witnessing"/etc. that we have in STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND.
(I would not, for instance, feel at all surprised to see the FOR US church
hierarchy include white-cloaked "Fair Witnesses" - like STRANGER'S Anne - who
had trained to observe/describe reality as honestly/accurately as a human
nervous system permits)
--- training members to question the sacred texts of the religion itself.
(Imagine a Sunday-school where, right along with memorizing the Bible or parts
thereof, kids ALSO learned to find all its mistakes/contradictions/logical
failures/signs of multiple authorship, learned to understand the processes of
textual corruption, learned to detect/understand the evidences that various
Biblical people could not have said/written the books/statements attributed to
them, at God's dictation or otherwise ... imagine this, convincingly taught to
children, and you'll picture pretty well the attitude I expect a Sunday-school
run by FOR US, THE LIVING's Scudder would teach towards *its* *own* sacred
texts).
/e/ along with the above - and seemingly (at first) posing a paradox when
considered with the skepticism in much of /d/ - I expect that FOR US, THE
LIVING's creed will also say things on reality/magic/the "impossible"/etc. that
align with the more "occult/pagan/paranormal/white-witchcraft"-sounding parts of
WALDO/MAGIC, INC./GLORY ROAD/STRANGER - given that (if I recall correctly)
R.A.H.'s interest in magic/the paranormal as a possible science dates at least
as far back as the late 1930s.
After all, even in the very scientific-and-pragmatic BEYOND THIS HORIZON (whose
society reportedly resembles the FOR US society in major ways), by the end of
the novel we find people taking the paranormal VERY seriously indeed: now that
they've solved their major survival problems, they seek for further meaning.
(Hmmm ... I wonder if the Heinlein Society's mandate, to explore and foster
areas Heinlein found important, includes scientific investigation of psi-powers
& reincarnation? Since R.A.H.'s fiction/non-fiction amply documents his interest
in researching these matters & his view of their importance - if scientifically
studied and NOT accepted as "matters of faith" on weak/uncritically viewed
evidence - I hope the Heinlein Society can lead in this area as well (current
claims that the military/CIA has long researched "remote viewing" come eerily
close to what Heinlein described in his ASSIGNMENT IN ETERNITY story "Project
Nightmare"). This hope, which admittedly not all may share, certainly makes me
anticipate that psi/etc. may feature (even if only to a minor extent) in FOR US,
THE LIVING.
So please, O privileged folks who have already seen the manuscript, let me know
(privately, of course)! - have I hit any bulls'-eyes? Or did I shoot 'way too
wide of the mark?
If I've scored any hits, David and Bill and all, let me know privately - for I
Promise by Saint Poddy Not To Tell!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Kate Gladstone - Handwriting Repair - kate@global2000.net
http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: Engr Bohn (BravoOscarHotelNovember@cis.ohio-state.edu)
Subject: Re: they say FOR US, THE LIVING will include a Rev. Nehemiah Scudder
but NOT the tyrant of REVOLT IN 2100
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2003-09-30 05:24:02 PST
Good morning, and welcome, Kate,
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003, Kate Gladstone wrote:
> As some of us learned at Torcon, > > /a/ the lost-then-found Heinlein novel FOR US, THE LIVING (which I > *won't* abbreviate to FUTL because my mind's ear persistently hears FUTL > as "futile"!) will have a character called "Rev. Nehemiah Scudder" BUT > ... > > /b/ this Scudder will greatly differ from the person of the same name in > published R.A.H works (REVOLT IN 2000/LOGIC OF EMPIRE). [...] [...] [...]
Given that (we're told) much of what's found in _For
Us The Living_ was recycled in other works, my guess is that The Reverend
Scudder will not be a sympathetic character. I wouldn't be surprised to find
that he's the voice of dissent in the future in which the protagonist finds
himself -- that Rev Scudder will bemoan what's become of the world. Or perhaps
he'll be a character in 1939 who warns of the loosening morals -- and perhaps
our hero agrees, and then after sleeping his way into the future [1] finds
himself in a world with quite looser morals and discovers that it hasn't brought
about an end to the world.
[1] Hmm. RAH certainly had quite a few Rip van Winkle characters didn't he?
Take care,
cb
--
Christopher A. Bohn ____________|____________
http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~bohn/ ' ** ** " (o) " ** ** '
"In this war it has become clear beyond all doubt that scientific
research is absolutely essential to national security."
- Vannevar Bush, July 1945
From: Jani (jani@blueyonder.co.uk)
Subject: Re: they say FOR US, THE LIVING will include a Rev. Nehemiah Scudder
but NOT the tyrant of REVOLT IN 2100
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2003-09-30 16:04:32 PST
"Kate Gladstone" <kate@global2000.net> wrote in message
news:kate-DD8823.01380930092003@syrcnyrdrs-01-ge0.nyroc.rr.com...
> As some of us learned at Torcon,
<snip>
I think you're asking if the major iconoclastic themes are centred on American
Christianity.
That's probably a Yes.
Jani
Messages 1-10 from thread
From: David Silver (ag.plusone@verizon.net)
Subject: "For Us, The Living," G. 004, Was It another
Friday?
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-06-26 20:00:10 PST
Today, June 26, 2002, our morning papers told us that yet one more enormous
corporation has joined the ranks of overinflated failures unsuccessfully
concealled by financial chicanery. Arthur Anderson (where have we heard that
name before?), its CPA firm, agressively out in front this time, claims its CFO
provided its auditors false information, and its CXO says he's "shocked." [The
CFO was fired today; and no doubt soon will be holding a yard sale to defray his
legal expenses in emulation of Kenneth "Po-boy" Lay.]
Commentators, probably the same ones who last week were recommending the buying
of Worldcon stock, echo those "shocked, simply shocked" claims and call for the
"rounding up of the usual suspects" -- a mere "handful" they predicably claim
once more.
Robert Heinlein's first large writing effort, manuscripts of which were
destroyed, dealt with the economic world and were written at the height of
recovery from the last world-wide depression. It was a novel named "For Us, The
Living," written ca. 1937, Gifford Opus number 004.
It's sometimes interesting to speculate on what it might have contained.
Financial chicanery of this sort reported today isn't a new invention.
For example, one writer admired by Robert Heinlein, whose works he read for
pleasure and even kept when he disposed of most of his personal library after
moving to Carmel in his last illness (and whose works Mrs. Heinlein tells us
still occupy a shelf in her home), John D. MacDonald wrote the following in his
1968 Travis McGee novel, _Pale Gray For Guilt_ (the story some here may recall
that involved the revenging of the murder of Tush Bannon).
McGee and Meyer have decided to 'sting' the man whose manipulations resulted,
they believe, in pressure that caused someone to kill Bannon, in hope that the
murder will run out of the woodwork into the light when the sting occurs. Part
of their scheme involves finding a corporation whose stock is so inflated but
looks so good they can induce him into investing into it. So Meyer the economist
went looking for and found one. He reports his success back to McGee, who is
going to pose as a successful investor to entice the villain into going along
with him on an investment scheme:
" . . . So the stock I found, Santo will think it has the same beautiful future like those you made the capital gains out of. . . . "
A dog called Fletcher Industries. I read maybe two hundred balance sheets and operating statements. I started with two hundred and weeded down and down and down, hunting for something that looks okay fine on the surface but is rotten underneath. It could win a prize for the worse stock. It has a thin float. It shows sales and profits going up every year. It has a nice profit margin, nice book value, big words in the annual financial report about a glowing future and so forth."
McGee interjects: "So what's wrong with it?" " Maybe I shouldn't try to explain. Listen, there are maybe eight perfectly ethical and legitimate choices a C.P.A. has when he is figuring profit per share. Each choice makes the profit higher or lower, accordingly. You find some old conservative companies that make the eight choices so that they show the lowest per share profit. Most companies make one choice one way, another, another way, so in general it cancels out. But this little Fletcher outfit, they use every choice they have to make their profits bigger. I reworked their statements. The stock sells right now for fifteen a share. Over the last twelve months, the earning reports say they have a profit of ninety-six cents a share. That was up from seventy-seven cents the previous year. Use the most conservative methods and you know what it is? A lousey eleven cents the previous year, and a four-cent loss this year. Such a statement they publish! The book value is all puffed up. The profit margin is nonsense. Even the cash flow is jiggered up." " Book value? Cash flow?" [asks McGee]. " Forget it. You don't have to know. All you have to know is . . . this one has no substance. It will go up like penny rockets and when it starts down, it should maybe end up as a two dollar stock which is where it belongs." pp. 102-03, Pale Gray for Guilt (Fawcett PB 1968 printing)
Of course, MacDonald's character Meyer is a world-renowed
economic genius, living in retirement on a boat down the slip from McGee's
Busted Flush. Be nice to have one handy and willing to sift through 200 stocks
for the dogs when buying 401s.
It would have been interesting to have read a novel involving a future's
economic manipulation written by Heinlein. Especially one written in the middle
of the depression, or, even, today. I'm thinking especially about some of the
political comments written about the power abuses and destruction of world
governments by multi-national corporations in _Friday_.
--
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)
From: djinn (qinjingyou@yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: "For Us, The Living," G. 004, Was It another
Friday?
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-06-27 18:13:20 PST
David Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in news:3D1A7FAB.4080205@verizon.net:
snip speculation
It would have been interesting to read, although one reason MacDonald was good
at writing about financial dealings is that he was educated in business and
finance. Heinlein wasn't and so the product would have necessarily been
different. Like most of his books it would have been about the people involved,
not the details of the financial dealings. Maybe a heroic accountant? :)
Heinlein did very well on management though *, so a story about a businessman
keeping his company going during anarchy or Balkanization might have happened -
a 'Taipan in the future' kind of story.
From the title it could have been an Aniara kind of story too, a shipful of
survivors fleeing a destroyed planet.
Speculation is fun!
* Fred Brooks quoted from 'The Man who Sold the Moon' in his software
engineering classic 'The Mythical Man Month'
-- Dave The programmer, like the poet, works only slightly removed from pure thought-stuff. He builds his castles in the air, from air, creating by exertion of the imagination..... The magic of myth and legend has come true in our time. Fred Brooks, The Mythical Man-Month.
From: David Silver (ag.plusone@verizon.net)
Subject: Re: "For Us, The Living," G. 004, Was It another Friday?
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-06-27 22:59:35 PST
djinn wrote:
> David Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in > news:3D1A7FAB.4080205@verizon.net: > > snip speculation > > It would have been interesting to read, although one reason MacDonald was > good at writing about financial dealings is that he was educated in > business and finance.
He certainly was. I recall bios on covers and flyleafs of stories by him earlier than the McGee series that mentioned MBAs and a well known eastern school, perhaps Wharton, and years of experience in corporate businesses before he finally retired from "real life" to write exclusively. He also spent some time in the China Burma theatre.
> Heinlein wasn't and so the product would have > necessarily been different.
You'd have to prove that to me; for considering his years with EPIC ["End Poverty in Califoria"], I'd assume he'd have some sort of practical grounding as well as theory, at least those espoused by that movement and reasonably likely to be posited by its foes. People spent a lot of attention and put a lot of focus on "economics" in the period 1929 (when he graduated Annapolis and when the market crashed)-37 (when For Us, The Living was written). There are some indications in the pre-war writings, e.g., "The Roads Must Road" that he'd studied at least some of the proposed solutions for the socio-political economic problems that my parents faced, finding some wanting and criticizing them. Then there's the passage in the story of Dora from Time Enough For Love, dealing with Laz's role as banker; and other hints here and there, the transfer of the Howard Family funds into gold, etc., that he had some theories.
> Like most of his books it would have been about > the people involved, not the details of the financial dealings. Maybe a > heroic accountant? :) >
The passage I quoted from Pale Gray for Guilt by
MacDonald of Dr. Meyer teaching McGee about crooked accounting on financial
statements reminds me more than a bit of the "information dumps" that Heinlein
was likely to put in every chapter of his juvenile novels and many adult
stories. We already had a potentially heroic accountant, the timekeeper prepared
to sit next after Konski, in Gentlemen, Be Seated, although Konski (and the
reporter-narrator) gets the kudos. ;-)
There is a theory that some of For Us, The Living was high-graded into Beyond
This Horizon. I've never really tried reading BTH to see what might survive of a
novel on economics. I suppose if we took away the dueling with .45s parts and
looked hard, some of what is left might fit into one, but what parts?
> Heinlein did very well on management though *, so a story about a > businessman keeping his company going during anarchy or Balkanization might > have happened - a 'Taipan in the future' kind of story. > > From the title it could have been an Aniara kind of story too, a shipful of > survivors fleeing a destroyed planet. >
Tell me more about "Aniara" stories, please.
> Speculation is fun!
>
>
>
> * Fred Brooks quoted from 'The Man who Sold the Moon' in his software
> engineering classic 'The Mythical Man Month'
>
>
--
--
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)
From: bookman (Thebookman@kc.rr.NULL.com)
Subject: Re: "For Us, The Living," G. 004, Was It another Friday?
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-06-28 00:05:35 PST
David Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in message news:3D1BFB14.60208@verizon.net...
> There is a theory that some of For Us, The Living was high-graded into > Beyond This Horizon. I've never really tried reading BTH to see what > might survive of a novel on economics. I suppose if we took away the > dueling with .45s parts and looked hard, some of what is left might fit > into one, but what parts? >
Background, sir. Recall that BTH is set in a society
where the economy is _managed_, and ways of getting people to reinvest/spend are
constantly being researched.
Thus the protagonist enters the stage, as he invents (essentially) video games.
> David M. Silver
Rusty the bookman also shows up in TDIS, but mostly for sneers/laughs.
From: BPRAL22169 (bpral22169@aol.com)
Subject: Re: "For Us, The Living," G. 004, Was It another Friday?
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-06-28 09:24:20 PST
>Background, sir. Recall that BTH is set in a society where >the economy is _managed_, and ways of getting people >to reinvest/spend are constantly being researched. >
This is a very plausible speculation. It just occurred to me that BTH has the Darlington Smith character revenant, a stockbroker from 1920s, which would make a perfect foil for contrasting economic systems and creates an opportunity for exposition -- explaining How Things Work. Bill
From: David Silver (ag.plusone@verizon.net)
Subject: Re: "For Us, The Living," G. 004, Was It another Friday?
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-06-28 10:28:48 PST
BPRAL22169 wrote, replying to Rusty:
>>Background, sir. Recall that BTH is set in a society where >>the economy is _managed_, and ways of getting people >>to reinvest/spend are constantly being researched. >> >> > > This is a very plausible speculation. It just occurred to me that BTH has the > Darlington Smith character revenant, a stockbroker from 1920s, which would > make a perfect foil for contrasting economic systems and creates an opportunity > for exposition -- explaining How Things Work.
Just as MacDonald, within the larger context of his
plot of revenge uses Meyer in not only the little part about finding the 'dog'
stock they use, but also the overall discussion of their scheme to entrap and
"sting" the financier whose indiference to the plight of Tush Bannon got him
killed, to explain to McGee How Things Work when the big boys still in the late
1960s and today manipulate the stock market to artificially jack up demand and
price in a certain stock so they can unload taking their profits just before the
bubble pops.
In the MacDonald example, you don't have to be "Ken Lay," you just have to
figure out or discover what "Ken Lay's" company is doing with its financial
reports before the herd, the stock exchange, other shareholders of the
manipulated company, and the SEC figures it out; then you quietly acquire a
position, encourage great demand one way or the other -- driving up the stock
price of a thin float is what Meyer and McGee encourage the bad guy to do, and
just as quietly sell off, putting your profits somewhere safe; and you can be
indifferent to what the eventual impact is -- McGee and Meyer leave the bad guy
holding the bag, not only deprived of substantial capital but under
investigation by the governors of the exchange and the SEC for doing what they
encouraged him to do and what he thought, *incorrectly,* what they were also
doing.
--
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)
From: djinn (qinjingyou@yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: "For Us, The Living," G. 004, Was It another Friday?
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-06-28 07:13:25 PST
David Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in news:3D1BFB14.60208@verizon.net:
> djinn wrote: > >> David Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in >> news:3D1A7FAB.4080205@verizon.net: >> >> snip speculation >> >> It would have been interesting to read, although one reason MacDonald >> was good at writing about financial dealings is that he was educated >> in business and finance. > > > He certainly was. I recall bios on covers and flyleafs of stories by > him earlier than the McGee series that mentioned MBAs and a well known > eastern school, perhaps Wharton, and years of experience in corporate > businesses before he finally retired from "real life" to write > exclusively. He also spent some time in the China Burma theatre. > >> Heinlein wasn't and so the product would have >> necessarily been different. > > > You'd have to prove that to me; for considering his years with EPIC > ["End Poverty in Califoria"], I'd assume he'd have some sort of > practical grounding as well as theory, at least those espoused by that > movement and reasonably likely to be posited by its foes. People spent > a lot of attention and put a lot of focus on "economics" in the period > 1929 (when he graduated Annapolis and when the market crashed)-37 > (when For Us, The Living was written). There are some indications in > the pre-war writings, e.g., "The Roads Must Road" that he'd studied at > least some of the proposed solutions for the socio-political economic > problems that my parents faced, finding some wanting and criticizing > them. Then there's the passage in the story of Dora from Time Enough > For Love, dealing with Laz's role as banker; and other hints here and > there, the transfer of the Howard Family funds into gold, etc., that > he had some theories. >
Meyer's explanation to McGee was about accounting
techniques, not economics. Not that Heinlein couldn't have studied accounting,
just don't think he'd go to that much trouble when he didn't need to. When he
had his characters calculate trajectories, he didn't go into how to calculate a
trajectory, just had them punch numbers or use a sliderule. Likewise he didn't
need to go into bookkeeping. ( MacDonald didn't either, I think he did it
because he could, and to establish Meyer as an expert)
Read the rest of this message... (52 more lines)
From: CEMyers (ClarkEMyers@hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: "For Us, The Living," G. 004, Was It another Friday?
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-06-28 18:36:09 PST
"djinn" <qinjingyou@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns923B49566983Bmmii@68.6.19.6...
> > Meyer's explanation to McGee was about accounting techniques, not > economics. Not that Heinlein couldn't have studied accounting, just don't > think he'd go to that much trouble when he didn't need to. > When he had his characters calculate trajectories, he didn't go into how to > calculate a trajectory, just had them punch numbers or use a sliderule. > Likewise he didn't need to go into bookkeeping. ( MacDonald didn't either, > I think he did it because he could, and to establish Meyer as an expert) >
But notice Rocket Ship Galileo had actual
calculations by the author on long brown paper just as C.J. Cherryh plotted time
and distance to schedule for port calls by her star ships and followed those
rules in later plotting - authors maybe don't do what they don't need to but
they do what they do need to. Indeed when it mattered and was the momentary
focus of the character (Cat Who...) the author did go into how to calculate a
trajectory. cf. Libby "if ...is as round. as it looks" then .....
As the teacher in Homestead IIRC suggested to then Evelyn Cyril one might study
law (or accounting) without actually meaning to practice it on behalf of others
for pay.
Clark
From: Chris Zakes (moondrgn@austin.rr.com)
Subject: Re: "For Us, The Living," G. 004, Was It another Friday?
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-06-28 19:37:58 PST
On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 01:10:36 GMT, djinn <qinjingyou@yahoo.com> wrote:
>David Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in >news:3D1A7FAB.4080205@verizon.net: > >snip speculation > >It would have been interesting to read, although one reason MacDonald was >good at writing about financial dealings is that he was educated in >business and finance. Heinlein wasn't and so the product would have >necessarily been different. Like most of his books it would have been about >the people involved, not the details of the financial dealings. Maybe a >heroic accountant? :)
I'm not so sure about that. There are a couple of mentions in "Grumbles" where Heinlein talked about writing non-fiction books about finance and semantics. And consider "Take Back Your Government"...
-Chris Zakes Texas "I'm a homicidal maniac. They look just like everybody else." -Wednesday Addams in "The Addams Family"
From: cmaj7dmin7 (reilloc@sbcglobal.net)
Subject: Re: "For Us, The Living," G. 004, Was It another Friday?
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-06-29 00:08:53 PST
"David Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in message news:3D1A7FAB.4080205@verizon.net...
[Lots of stuff, gone. Just, plain gone. Well, it's in an old post Dave made.] > It would have been interesting to have read a novel involving a future's > economic manipulation written by Heinlein. Especially one written in the > middle of the depression, or, even, today. I'm thinking especially about > some of the political comments written about the power abuses and > destruction of world governments by multi-national corporations in > _Friday_. > David M. Silver > http://www.heinleinsociety.org
Uhhh...Dave? Not a minute went by but Woody and his
progeny were up to some kind of intergallactic scam to set up this limited
liability something to hold that close corporation which owns nothing but voting
interest in another off-planet bank that votes the way the Senior or Hilda or
Maureen or Ira says vote on whether to issue debentures to fund a leveraged
buyout of half a solar system. After Hilda subdues him, that's the first thing
they talk about. And who else is in on it? Slipstick Meyer, I mean, Libby
himself in the John Maynard Keynes or whatever it's called in the 43rd century.
Pick a confidence man, I mean economist, it doesn't matter; a banana's a banana
no matter how you peel it.
LNC
[Editor's Note]:Quite a number of postings were made
on this subject prior to the formal introduction for this meeting.
Instead of attempting to insert them here, I did a Google search and have
created the following tiny.url which leads to them.
http://tinyurl.com/2usuu
End of Postings
Here Begins the Discussion
You have just entered room "Heinlein Readers Group Chat."
DavidWrightSr: Hi Os. I see you are early too
OscagneTX: howdy.
OscagneTX: Been there long?
DavidWrightSr: Just a couple of minutes. I always like to arrive early and try to get a full log.
OscagneTX: Ok.
OscagneTX: I had the same idea, and Steph is watching Moulin Rouge, so I haven't anything better to do. %^)
DavidWrightSr: Since we didn't get much response on
a.f.h. directly. I am going back and picking up some of the earlier threads
which talked about FUTL and add them into what was done directly. However, one
of the threads is 139 posts. I'm just going to post a URL to a google search on
that one.
[Editor's Note: see] http://tinyurl.com/2usuu
OscagneTX: Ok. That seems sufficient.
Reilloc has entered the room.
OscagneTX: howdy
Reilloc: Hi
Reilloc: Back, later...
Reilloc has left the room.
kategladstone@mac.com has entered the room.
kategladstone@mac.com: Hello, David and Oscagne!
OscagneTX: howdy
kategladstone@mac.com: Do we often have as few as three people when we begin?
OscagneTX: No, but we've still got a little more than an hour before official start.
kategladstone@mac.com: Oh, yes - I'd forgot that we operate on Central Time.
kategladstone@mac.com: I may go back to what had occupied my afternoon - beginning the study of Japanese with a language-program similar to what RAH describes in GULF.
OscagneTX: Hmm... sorta. I operate on central because that's where I am, and I figure that since we're "broadcasting" worldwide, it's an arbitrary choice...
kategladstone@mac.com: It comes from a company called "Transparent Language" - and includes oscilloscope scans of your voice and the teachers' voices.
OscagneTX: So, it's most convenient for me to remember when I'm writing the posts.
kategladstone@mac.com: So I think I'll disconnect, go back to studying, and come back here later.
OscagneTX: ok.
kategladstone@mac.com: Sayonara!
kategladstone@mac.com has left the room.
Caine1959 has entered the room.
Caine1959: Hi folks! Getting people together early?
DavidWrightSr: A couple of usually come in early to set up the chairs, drinks at the bar, clean out the stove etc.
DavidWrightSr: couple of us
Caine1959: sounds good...should I stoke the fireplace?
DavidWrightSr: Everyone who is here now is doing a couple of other things, so hang around and be welcome.
OscagneTX: Howdy.
Caine1959: no problem...was reading Mr. Robinson's bit in FUTL on the webpage
DavidWrightSr: That's Joe McGrew, our fearless leader, and I am David
Caine1959: I think I remember you David.... I used to come her a few years ago
OscagneTX: more like fealress reader.
Caine1959: Hi Joe
OscagneTX: howdy.
Caine1959: I timed it right coming in tonight...finished the book last week
Merfilly27 has entered the room.
OscagneTX: howdy
Merfilly27: thank you
Caine1959: Hi Mer...how goes it?
OscagneTX: YW
Merfilly27: well
Caine1959: great...
Merfilly27 has left the room.
Caine1959: opps....gotta go for a bit.... I'll try to be back for the discussion
Caine1959 has left the room.
Merfilly27 has entered the room.
OscagneTX: wb
Merfilly27: thank you
OscagneTX: your welcom
Merfilly27: I'll return in a bit
OscagneTX: ok
Merfilly27 has left the room.
aggirlj has entered the room.
aggirlj: Hi guys, lurking while I continue to read.
OscagneTX: howdy
aggirlj: Thought I'd put a new slant on this one. Since I've read so little I think I can safely say I'm not hung up on what went before.
OscagneTX: what went before?
OscagneTX: you mean in the group, or in other books?
aggirlj: The whole raft of books and . . . yes
OscagneTX: ahh
aggirlj: So I'll read until it truly starts, talk later.
OscagneTX: ok
kategladstone@mac.com has entered the room.
kategladstone@mac.com: Hello, folks! (actually, I logged in briefly about 40 minutes ago, then left.)
aggirlj: Hi Kate
kategladstone@mac.com: I wanted to try out some learn-Japanese software
kategladstone@mac.com: Hello, Jane!
aggirlj: BTW have you gotten any of my emails.
kategladstone@mac.com: I haven't checked e-mails for the past six hours or so.
aggirlj: way back, after our library meeting.
kategladstone@mac.com: I can check now, but it may crash my computer. But I will try anyway.
aggirlj: No, don't.
kategladstone@mac.com: Which e-mails do you mean, Jane? Remind me.
kategladstone@mac.com: What did they contain?
aggirlj: On what we discussed at the meeting and what you suggested. It's been a while. That's why I asked.
kategladstone@mac.com: I didn't see those e-mails - but, then, I have had a lot of computer problems. Could you perhaps summarize them here, and/or re-send them?
aggirlj: Some research stuff.
kategladstone@mac.com: I'd like to see it!
aggirlj: I'll resend
kategladstone@mac.com: Thanks!
aggirlj: After
kategladstone@mac.com: Fine - I'll check later tonight. I've spent much of today having fun w/some software reminiscent of RAH's "Gulf" ...
aggirlj: I'm still reading FUTL as we sit waiting to start.
kategladstone@mac.com: Do you feel as unnerved, as I do, by FUTL's "take" on Coventry? Where you can apparently get exiled for believing in Catholicism?
aggirlj: Not there yet. Plan on finishing before Saturday.
kategladstone@mac.com: Well, you'll know that part when you get there.
kategladstone@mac.com: How far have you gotten with FUTL, Jane?
aggirlj: Not that far Kate. Just started. Someone said I shouldn't read it until I read other RAH. But I figured, why not? At least I have a different perspective.
kategladstone@mac.com: People who don't want you to read FUTL as your first RAH find FUTL unrepresentative of RAH's work as a whole ...
kategladstone@mac.com: e.g., because of its stylistic weaknesses and (even more so) because of its vast ideological differences from later RAH works.
kategladstone@mac.com: At the time he wrote FUTL, RAH held political/social views that he would later strongly modify or abandon.
OscagneTX: Jane, it's more interesting as a "here's the roots of . . . etc." work than a work on it's own, IMO.
aggirlj: I'm reading it as it is. Not looking for anything except a good story.
kategladstone@mac.com: I'd agree with Oscagne that this also gives a good reason to save FUTL till after other RAHs - not that you *have* to do it that way: if you started FUTL, hey, finish it and form your own opinions.
OscagneTX: I worry that I'm in the minority, but I didn't find the story interesting. I found it a vehicle stricktly for the philosphy, which I found tedious also. I think I'll follow my mom's advice, and shut up now. %^)
aggirlj: I must admit that I think he must have learned an awful lot after this first try.
kategladstone@mac.com: As far as you've gotten, Jane (not very far, I know), do you have any questions about odd things in the book?
aggirlj: Not yet.
kategladstone@mac.com: I agree with Oscagne that FUTL unfortunately comes too close to a political/social tract and not close enough to a novel.
aggirlj: Some of the prose. Use of adjectives that aren't obvious. HellPhyre87 has entered the room. HellPhyre87 has left the room.
OscagneTX: howdy
kategladstone@mac.com: What do you mean, Jane? Examples?
OscagneTX: bydy.
kategladstone@mac.com: Hello and goodbye, Hellphyre! ;-)
aggirlj: . . . 'ejaculations of suprise' . .
jcgsmtop1 has entered the room. jilyd has entered the room.
Bookman99R has entered the room.
OscagneTX: howdy, all.
kategladstone@mac.com: "Ejaculations" has a meaning other (and older) than the sexual one.
kategladstone@mac.com: Hello to you all three!
jcgsmtop1: Howdy jilyd: Evening everyone.
Bookman99R: hey, hey, hey! SciFiman33 has entered the room.
aggirlj: TY Kate. I know. It's a little interesting is what I mean.
OscagneTX: /me looks askance as Rusty channels "What's Happening".
OscagneTX: howdy, SFM.
aggirlj: Hi Richard!
kategladstone@mac.com: Hello, SciFiMan! SciFiman33:
Scifiman33
DavidWrightSr: Sorry to everyone about the invite. I was afk up until just a few minutes ago. We are just now officially getting started
kategladstone@mac.com: What else, besides "ejaculation" in the non-sexual sense, struck you as odd in FUTL? Dehede011 has entered the room.
aggirlj: Someone else can answer that, just one I noticed while waiting TheCOinOz has entered the room.
kategladstone@mac.com: Of course, four or five decades later RAH would have had his hero and heroine pun on the word's dual senses. Dehede011: Howdy, I was just getting cocoa. TheCOinOz: hi there
kategladstone@mac.com: Hello, TheCoinOz!
Bookman99R: not "WH", Osc. Fat Albert
kategladstone@mac.com: Hello, Ron!
OscagneTX: howdy, all. TheCOinOz: Thanks for the invite David. Dehede011: Thank you, who ever sent the invitation.
OscagneTX: Ah... diff between "hey Hey HEY!" and "hey HEY hey!"
kategladstone@mac.com: Who here has or hasn't finished FUTL (I know that Jane hasn't gotten far into it yet.)
DavidWrightSr: Yo welcome. jilyd: Geoff! I haven't talked to you in WAAAAY too long!
kategladstone@mac.com: I wish we could have seen more of the blacks in FUTL, by the way.
Merfilly27 has entered the room. SciFiman33: I am on page 155, Ch IX. Dehede011: Thanks, David.
kategladstone@mac.com: Hello, Merfilly!
Merfilly27: Hello wonderful people!
jcgsmtop1: I finished it TheCOinOz: no, it's been a while, RL has intruded on my socialising LOL.
kategladstone@mac.com: I forget - what happens on page 155?
OscagneTX: WB, Steph.
kategladstone@mac.com: I finished it a while back (though I can't locate my copy at the moment. Andrew may have taken it to start designing the "economics game" the novel teaches and refers to.
DavidWrightSr: I've read it twice, the second time just this last week to re-fresh myself on it. jilyd: :-), Geoff. LV Poker Player has entered the room.
kategladstone@mac.com: Good idea - did anything pop out on your re-reading,
David?
OscagneTX: howdy, LV. LV Poker Player: hi all
kategladstone@mac.com: Welcome back, LVPP? Hmmm, I wonder if they had gambling in FUTL-world? TheCOinOz: Hope the weather is nice for you, it's 12:30 Friday afternoon and it's a very pleasant 25c outside.
DavidWrightSr: The main thing that struck me were the very numerous place where I said to myself. "that in xx". LV Poker Player: They had humans, so I am guessing they had gambling
Merfilly27: had a gambling reference in my comics this past week
kategladstone@mac.com: We have 25 Fahrenheit (not "c") here, at 9:00 PM TheCOinOz: Brrrr. Never been anywhere that cold. Dehede011: Kate, you are very lucky.
aggirlj: It's low 40's here in CO
DavidWrightSr: In BTH, most of Hamiliton Felix's games were gambling.
kategladstone@mac.com: Does gambling stay fun if you get issued free money every month?
Merfilly27: says its 43 here Dehede011: It is 5 F in the Chicago area.
kategladstone@mac.com: Lucky? The temp will soon return to around zero Fahrenheit, where it has hovered for most of the past fortnight here in Albany.
aggirlj: Brrrrr! LV Poker Player: It seems to have been a part of all cultures, dice have been found in all ancient cultures. Loaded ones have been found in Egyptian pyramids, presumably to give the Pharoa an advantage in the afterlife.
kategladstone@mac.com: We just had a bit of a "warm snap" which will soon dissipate. TheCOinOz: for some it does, those who just play for fun. Most gamblers are drawn by the lure of that 'big score' I guess. LV Poker Player: That being the case, it isa good bet that they had gambling
NYC20CnLtd has entered the room. LV Poker Player: It would also be considered a private sphere activity, I am sure
kategladstone@mac.com: Yes - and much later in history, Norwegians remember St. Olaf who shot craps and rolled a thirteen (one of the dice broke), thus winning Norway in a bet.
OscagneTX: howdy. NY
Caine1959 has entered the room.
NYC20CnLtd: Hi!
kategladstone@mac.com: Other versions say that he rolled one die and it broke to let him roll a seven.
OscagneTX: WB
kategladstone@mac.com: Hello!
jcgsmtop1: (I have to go feed neighbors' cats ... back in a bit.)
kategladstone@mac.com: Either way, Norway's St. Olaf beat the maximum possible throw.
kategladstone@mac.com: ;-) TheCOinOz: The legionaires gambled for Christs cloak at his crucifiction IIRC>
kategladstone@mac.com: Poul Anderson wrote a filk about it, if memory serves.
BPRAL22169 has entered the room.
BPRAL22169: Hi, y'all.
aggirlj: Hey Bill
OscagneTX: Howdy, Bill.
kategladstone@mac.com: Not about the legionaries, about St. Olaf's crap-shoot. a57thornton has entered the room.
Caine1959: Hi!
kategladstone@mac.com: Hello, Bill!
BPRAL22169: My goodness, this is a flash crowd!
OscagneTX: howdy. jilyd: Good evening, Bill
BPRAL22169: Andy, glad you could make it.
OscagneTX: I see lots of folks I don't recognize. Anyone want to introduce themselves?
BPRAL22169: Caine, are you from Orange County? a57thornton: Good evening Mr. Bill & everyone
BPRAL22169: Oh, No-o-o-o-!
Caine1959: nope... Escondido, CA...north of San Diego
aggirlj: I'll start it.
aggirlj: <-----Jane
BPRAL22169: Have not seen you for awhile! Since the AOL days.
OscagneTX: The first "Mr. Bill" I saw, they were duct taping him to a space shuttle.
kategladstone@mac.com: Bill - you know about mystical/religious stuff in Heinlein - in FUTL, somewhere, it states that their "code of customs" included the FUTL society's definition of the word "God," but we don't get to see that definition. ...
BPRAL22169: Oh, to change places! a57thornton: I note Mr. Bill has become the spokespuppet for the swamps of Louisana
Caine1959: yep :-) I'm back
OscagneTX: <-- Joe, Houston, TX.
kategladstone@mac.com: ... Bill and all, how do you think the FUTLers defined "God" (since they apparently had some "official" definition for that word)? a57thornton: <--Andy
Merfilly27: <---Steph
kategladstone@mac.com: Hello, Andy - and Steph, of course! ;-) Dehede011: Ron, Chicago area
kategladstone@mac.com: Well, I greeted Steph earlier, as "Merfilly."
NYC20CnLtd: I'm John, from Orange Park, FL.
Caine1959: <--- Ron, California
kategladstone@mac.com: Kate from Albany, NY
jcgsmtop1:
Merfilly27: aye...just introducing myself for I do not recognize some names
BPRAL22169: that this society had solved that, by definition, big problem, was a sign of their maturity as a culture. a57thornton has left the room.
LanaiHoward has entered the room.
BPRAL22169: Coward!
aggirlj: Hi Howard.
LanaiHoward: Friends, Romans, Countrymen, etc....
BPRAL22169: In short, he may not have had a specific definition in mind.
OscagneTX: howdy, Howard.
Bookman99R: what did I miss? a57thornton has entered the room.
Caine1959: just getting started
aggirlj: Haven't really started yet.
Merfilly27: god = non-definitive noun for that which the subconscious relies on in extreme stress ?
OscagneTX: I need my ears, Howard. But if you REALLY want one, I'll give you the right one. It hears better than the left.
Bookman99R: had to read a bedtime story... a57thornton: Back again
Merfilly27: which one?
LanaiHoward: That's all right, Osc. My left is purely decorative.
Bookman99R: Dizney's Hercules - gah! Dehede011: Those of you that like to look at thoughts on God might like to see Jean Leidloff's Continuum Concept.
Bookman99R: but he chose it
Merfilly27: aha
DavidWrightSr: If anyone needs to know how to make a shortcut into the room without being invited, IM me and I'll you know. a57thornton: What's the topic BTW?
Merfilly27: they really mangled mythology in that Dehede011: She has some ideas I have seen nowhere before.
BPRAL22169: FUTL
Bookman99R: no kidding
kategladstone@mac.com: I wonder whether FUTLers defined "God" as "meaningless noise" as Ira later did for Maureen - or as "all that [some 1930s equivalent of 'groks']" as in STRANGER.
OscagneTX: The topid is _For Us the Living_
Bookman99R: gotta round up Kipling
DavidWrightSr: Not a tepid-topid O:-) jilyd has left the room.
kategladstone@mac.com: Tell me about this "Continuum Concept" notion (off-line if necessary - I think you know my e-mail).
BPRAL22169: Or it could be something completely different -- completely out of left field like: God is what you see when one part of your brain looks at another part.
Merfilly27: anyone catch the birthday for "Gordon"? Dehede011: Yes, Kate, I do TheCOinOz: hmm, 'grok' had a definite meaning, something akin to 'understand' combined with 'accept'
Merfilly27: (please pardon, I did not read threads for I was reading the novel)
OscagneTX: "to drink" %^)
Bookman99R: 'grok' is drink
kategladstone@mac.com: But could you really WORSHIP what one part of your brain sees when looking at another part? Or DID the FUTLers, even in church (the few who went) worship anything? (Diane in FUTL says that the thought of ... TheCOinOz: yes, but it meant more than just that in the context it was used.
Caine1959: I still like the viewpoint of God in Job... so indescribile we can't comprehend him except as the big Boss a57thornton has left the room.
kategladstone@mac.com: ... church-services makes her feel "dirty")
OscagneTX: Why does God or god or ghod need worshiping?
Caine1959: yes there were "religions" in it
Bookman99R: energy source?
Merfilly27: because, ultimately, man needs something else to blame
BPRAL22169: It's not in evidence that God needs worshippping -- but humans seem to need to do it. TheCOinOz: LOL Dehede011: What if God was in many ways a hunger to fill a deficiency in our rearing
kategladstone@mac.com: In JOB, the biggest God (Koshchei the Deathless, from Cabell) doesn't need or invite worship - our God (and our Satan) look up to K. but they don't bow down to him.
aggirlj: Exactly Bill. TheCOinOz: Good point BPRAL a57thornton has entered the room.
LanaiHoward: Osc, that has always baffled me. Now, the only concept that has ever made any sense is that of Teilhard du Chardin -- it is the goal of a god...
aggirlj: Or they need to be controlled and in fear?
LanaiHoward: to mentor his/her creations in becoming godlike. Of course, no one says god can't be evolving in the process...
kategladstone@mac.com: If God fills a deficiency in our rearing, then presumably the oh-so-perfect FUTLers don't have or need Him/Her (save for a few warped souls whom FUTL psychotherapy quickly unwarps.)
Bookman99R: OTOH, ritual in community is important to many people
LanaiHoward: so it might follow that prayer is a state of being receptive to mentoring. Still requires an act of faith for me. Dehede011: And in second part a yearning to return to the time before our brain became mature enough to make decisions. LV Poker Player has left the room.
kategladstone@mac.com: Did the FUTLers have much "ritual in community" (secular or religious?) I don't seem to recall much (don't recall ANY group ceremonies or community rituals, in fact) ...
LanaiHoward: Got something against warpdrive, Kate?
OscagneTX: isn't the translation or meaning or whatever of "to pray" literally "to ask"? TheCOinOz: Quite so. Even where it doesn't necessarily involve religion. It's very popular amongst the military for instance, as a means of showing or being shown respect.
Caine1959: hmmmm.... have to look into that one. RAH's works lead me to look at the facts, so I'm a Bible believing Christian who has a hard time with organized religions where men tell me what I have to do...
kategladstone@mac.com: ... they seem in many ways a society of loners. No, I've nothing against warpdrive, Lanai Howard - why do you ask?
OscagneTX: You have to ask God for everything, and then when you've earned it for yourself you have to thank Him for it.
OscagneTX: Pfui.
BPRAL22169: Is Koschei the "biggest god"? All we know is he is the god of things as they are.
Caine1959: religion is something set up by man to try to relate to God
LanaiHoward: RB, that resonates at the moment -- I've been feeling a need for community, but I'm not sure ritual is part of it
BPRAL22169: It seems to me they have a great deal of ritual -- but it's not religious ritual.
LanaiHoward: well, you were mentioning unwarping as good. :-P TheCOinOz: important difference
kategladstone@mac.com: Some religions say that God wants a certain kind of worship and will not accept anything different from this (that humans may create).
OscagneTX: Ritual can be important even without religion, simply because people like to be able to expect what's coming next.
kategladstone@mac.com: What rituals do you recall the FUTLers having? a57thornton has left the room.
Bookman99R: IMO, ritual is emotionally powerful
aggirlj: I uwb Andy TheCOinOz: between religious and non religious ritual. Example 'Showing the colours'
BPRAL22169: I just read something about that today, in Frye's Fables of Identity.
Caine1959: I have a book question.... did he really explain HOW Perry ended up in the future? seemed kinda vague Dehede011: If you read Clare Graves completion of Maslow's hierarchy there is an intense need for ceremony to solidfy the tribe
Merfilly27: he di dnot
LanaiHoward: I've found the power in neopagan ritual to be one of mutual bonding, as well as bonding to the earth.
Caine1959: whew...thought it was just me
aggirlj: As I read it, Perry came to a 'time' and possibly in another body.
LanaiHoward: Caine: Clarke's Second Law.
OscagneTX: that really bugged me, too, Caine.
Merfilly27: it was left up to the reader to provide their own explanation
kategladstone@mac.com: RAH never makes quite clear whether Perry REALLY got into the future (through some "Twilight Zone"-esque soul-switching magic, as the Hindu in the book claims) ...
Bookman99R: yeah, bonding with a community is a biggie
OscagneTX: The whole damn thing was just a vehicle for a utopia explanation.
kategladstone@mac.com: ... or whether possibly Perry just dreamed it all while dying in that accident as his brain ceased to function ... TheCOinOz: Bit like Burroughs 'Mars' novels.
Caine1959: true...but RAH got better at tying up loose ends like that in his later books including time travel
Bookman99R: that's why many churches use a ritual service
BPRAL22169: Ritual is an expression of "narrative" -- pattern, whereas imagery is an expression of epiphany. a57thornton has entered the room.
Bookman99R: usually including participation elements
kategladstone@mac.com: cf. I WILL FEAR NO EVIL (did Eunice REALLY talk to Johann, or did he hallucinate her?)
Merfilly27: Kate---that puts it with IWFNE then
kategladstone@mac.com: Yes!
Caine1959: some of the best definations of ritual are in the Kurtz/Harris Adept series...try'em some time
kategladstone@mac.com: What participatory rituals (if any) do we see in FUTL?
BPRAL22169: Andy, you might try signing off and rebooting.
Bookman99R: even Scouting uses sing-alongs IIRC
DavidWrightSr: As to Perry's 'transfer'. I think that RAH was utilizing some of the implications of Dunne' theories. Similar to what Piper did with it.
OscagneTX: Was it Spider... or perhaps it was Bill...? Suggested that H's first book was just a vehicle for his social theory, and when it got rejected he realized he liked telling the story...
BPRAL22169: Their personal greetings to each other are highly formalized. TheCOinOz: re IWFNE, I got the distinct impression it was really her.
kategladstone@mac.com: Even things like marriage typically happen privately - say you've married and you HAVE married: period.
OscagneTX: And that's why we have so many good stories from him.
Merfilly27: Spider
AGplusone has entered the room.
OscagneTX: Howdy, David.
aggirlj: Hi David
aggirlj: brb Dehede011: getting more cocoa
kategladstone@mac.com: Okay, I guess that formal greetings count as rituals. Presumably, more such exists in the FUTLers' "code of customs," which children learn but which we never actually see. (Does anyone in FUTL quote it?) Hello, David!
AGplusone: Hi, Joe. Had to get in here by the back door. For some reason my AIM isn't working too well.
BPRAL22169: I vaguely recall a useful definition of "ritual" from TA -- by inversion; intimacy is the state in which you no longer need ritual.
Caine1959: it was hard to say...I re-read FEAR, I could believe it right up until the third soul came into the body... then it was hard to suspend my disbelief
OscagneTX: Your name has been helping me in my chem class... remembering the charge. I couldn't figure out that part of your nickname until I got to studying that bit.
kategladstone@mac.com: If I could believe two souls in a body, why not believe a third?
kategladstone@mac.com: ;-)
LanaiHoward: And that formalization of greeting invokes both reciprocal obligation and obligation to a cultural norm/ideal -- distinct concepts in Japanese socialization TheCOinOz: How much room does a soul need anyway?
Bookman99R: and how does the soul 'connect' to the body?
kategladstone@mac.com: Hmmm ... does FUTL society remind you of Japan in other ways, LanaiHoward?
kategladstone@mac.com: I ask because Andrew and I plan (if we can afford it) to visit Japan in a few years.
BPRAL22169: Apparently the FUTLers know something about the subject -- another sign they are 'way advanced-- she accepts it without much fuss.
DavidWrightSr: You know, it just occurred to me that what I said about Dunne could be applied to IWFNE, if you stretch it a little.
LanaiHoward: Can't speak to souls, but did have an honors hugh school chemistry problem of determining how many angels can dance on the head of a pin georule1861 has entered the room.
Merfilly27: intense separation of private/public sphere strikes me as Japanese
kategladstone@mac.com: I wonder how many Heinlein fans live in Japan? TheCOinOz: that angels on the pin problem dates from the middle ages doesn't it?
OscagneTX: howdy, Geo.
aggirlj: Hi Geo
kategladstone@mac.com: Hello, Geo!
Bookman99R: that's like the "Hell is exothermic" paper, eh, Howard? georule1861: Evenin'
NYC20CnLtd: That would be easy to answer, but not by me. How well do his books sell in Japan?
BPRAL22169: Very well, indeed.
LanaiHoward: Much of Japanese formalism is a way of dealing with otherwise intolerable population pressure....not that such pressure was an FUTL issue....
kategladstone@mac.com: I wonder which RAH books sell best in Japan.
NYC20CnLtd: (Japanese translations are half the picture--a lot of Japanese learn English, and might read the originals.) georule1861: I read the privacy amendment and thot "wow, he beat Griswold by 30 years"
kategladstone@mac.com: Population pressure might have *become* an issue in a technological society that hadn't opened the frontiers of space by the 21st century ...
LanaiHoward: there is also a (positive) expectation of predictable social behavior in both.. Add to the respect for "Masters" as learned advisors who also have achieved self-mastery TheCOinOz: Anne McCaffrey mentions something like that describing the incredibly ritualised lives of the cat like aliens in the Doona books. "There is much time to be accounted for and ritual helps to pass it"
kategladstone@mac.com: the economist-teacher character talks about the 18th/19th-century USA having a frontier to absorb unemployed people, something that (he notes) his own time doesn't have.
Bookman99R: maybe, Kate - but how high is "up", so to speak
kategladstone@mac.com: What do you mean by "how high is 'up
kategladstone@mac.com: ' in this context?
Bookman99R: Pressure is not really high yet
LanaiHoward: NYC20, in my brief stay in Japan, I found many people who THOUGHT they spoke ENglish -- and made no sense. Is the level of understanding better with written English?
NYC20CnLtd: We still have a frontier that's more easily reached than space--the arctic.
kategladstone@mac.com: No - but I suspect that the pressure would have
started to build in a generation or so.
Bookman99R: by Japanese standards, say
LanaiHoward: the arctic and undersea.
DavidWrightSr: In COTG, Margaret, (I think), to Thorby that you could go through the entire day and not use everything out of The laws of Sisu. IIRC
kategladstone@mac.com: I know a lot of Japanese folks who write excellent English but can barely speak a word of it.
Merfilly27: or the oceans on frontiers
Bookman99R: But societies much more thinly settled than ours have had population pressure as a prime factor
kategladstone@mac.com: Margaret Mader said, as I recall, that you could go through a day and not say ANYTHING not found in the ship's laws - rather different!
kategladstone@mac.com: (referring to CITIZEN OF THE GALAXY)
DavidWrightSr: That's what I was trying to say. Didn't come out exactly right
LanaiHoward: Right, David. But was that a simple relief from worrying about being socially correct, and possibly freeing one to be out-of-the-box creative?. The Free Traders were socially rigid, true...
DavidWrightSr: or was that GMTA? :-)
kategladstone@mac.com: RAH did discuss pop.-pressure in LOGIC OF EMPIRE, along with econ. theories slightly reminiscent of some of the econ.-Master's statements in FUTL.
LanaiHoward: but there's no reason to believe they weren't quite original in the arts or technologies
OscagneTX: And in ST, Kate.
OscagneTX: I think.
OscagneTX: "Every war ever started was the result of pop pressure" or some such.
NYC20CnLtd: Answering your question Lanai, I don't know. I know I don't speak Spanish well enough to follow Univision on TV, but I could manage more-or-less with written works. (I also know I'd probably seek out translations.)
Bookman99R: NYC - absent delta-v costs, is space a harsher environment than the Arctic?
kategladstone@mac.com: Yes, in ST too ... and tangentially in one or two paragraphs in TEFL (talking about economies collapsing from poor feedback)
AGplusone: In FUTL it's every war started with trade inbalances, Joe.
LanaiHoward: there's a big difference between having to heat and moisturize air that is present -- and having to bring your own
NYC20CnLtd: Yes. Mars and the Moon lack readily breathable air. The arctic and antarctic don't.
DavidWrightSr: Everyone seems to think that the social credit idea won't work, Can someone explain simply the fallacies in RAH's thinking? It seemed reasonable to me. TheCOinOz: I can think of several that were not a result of population pressure, but either a need for resources or political. The US Revolution and the US Civil ware being cases in point. Neither of those could be construed as caused by pop
Bookman99R: But Pop. Press & trade imbalances bot point to isolated lack of rescources
LanaiHoward: I am _not_ going to talk about air in SoCal or NJ....
kategladstone@mac.com: I suspect that Social Credit WOULD work if you had a planet full of superlatively good and nice people who all believed in Social Credit ...
NYC20CnLtd: (We're also still sizing up the water situations on the moon and Mars.)
BPRAL22169: Who is "everybody"? There aren't any "fallacies" -- it's just well outside the conventional boxes for economic thinking. TheCOinOz: Enlightened Self Interest?
AGplusone: Population pressure does not equal trade inbalances
kategladstone@mac.com: ... but add in a critical mass of "bad apples," out to "game the system" and take without contributing ... TheCOinOz: 'Doc' Smith was rather fond of that one.
Bookman99R: NYC - but in L5, you have an unlimited supplyy of sunlight. not so in the arctic
kategladstone@mac.com: and the system may collapse.
OscagneTX: Well... Communism would work if "humanity" was basically "good".
NYC20CnLtd: That's true.
AGplusone: Why worry about them? Heinlein doesn't.
kategladstone@mac.com: Same idea ... georule1861: You need a closed system for social credit. Or communism.
LanaiHoward: CO, would you entertain it isn't absolute space or resources, but access to them? The transportation and communications of the times made cities overcrowded and grim. Suburbanization isoften overlooked as a major US factor
Bookman99R: good point, Geo
AGplusone: No, that's not true either. georule1861: I found myself thinking that the South America thing would mean no need for Heritage Checks, which would be politically impossible.
NYC20CnLtd: The biggest, most valuable in abundence in space and scarce on Earth is freedom.
kategladstone@mac.com: So, of course, RAH has to have a whole set-up of pshrinks to keep everyone properly sane, compliant, and ... well ... tame. (the biggest difference between FUTL and BEYOND THIS HORIZON). TheCOinOz: Hmm, not so sure about that. Communism works on the basis that one mans/womans work is worth no more than any other. This is fallacious in an industrialised society where a skilled person is more useful than an unskilled labourer.
NYC20CnLtd: Energy is probably second. georule1861: brb
OscagneTX: I thought communism worked on the basis of "from each according to ability, to each according to need".
LanaiHoward: Or is it that the wolves are more obvious in BtH? I felt Coventry to be more in line with FUTL TheCOinOz: Remember that Marx wrote the Communist manifesto in the 19th century when he was an old man, remembering his early life which was definitely pre industrial.
DavidWrightSr: One of those things in FUTL which I noticed was echoed in ST.
Bookman99R: There's a point there: Soviet Comm fell in part because it couldn't handle transportation logistics, no?
kategladstone@mac.com: In FUTL-world, if your behavior disrupts society you either get kicked out of society or packed off to a re-education camp ... even just for believing in, say, Catholicism or something.
AGplusone: No, the fallacy in communism is the definition of "worth" sez FUTL, an artificial thing, rather than what it really is.
kategladstone@mac.com: Even though Perry learned intriguing things during his therapy, I don't feel so comfortable with the notion. TheCOinOz: Essentially yes, that was one of the key elements, but it also tends to work well only in non technological ie agrarian/peasant farmer etc societies.
LanaiHoward: the fUSSR rail net is centered on Moscow, to the detriment of, say Ukraine to Belorussia commerce
kategladstone@mac.com: So how did FUTL define economic worth? The way that ST defined it?
BPRAL22169: Not the way I understood it, Kate -- you had to actually DO something anti-social to get society withdraw itself from you.
Bookman99R: right, Howard
AGplusone: I.e., what people will pay for it. A mudpie equals zero, but Marx says otherwise. There's supposed to be some inherent worth there.
AGplusone: See above. What people will pay for it.
BPRAL22169: Yeah, Marx's labor theory of value.
BPRAL22169: Falls apart the instant youlook at it.
DavidWrightSr: and the notion that 'equal work' means 'equal value'.
LanaiHoward: idly thinks the mudpie only has value when someone gets the idea that a cosmetologist with an accent can use it as a facial TheCOinOz: which works only when people have roughly the same work value. a57thornton: Ricardo's Theory, actually
AGplusone: which isn';t true either
aggirlj: Good one Howard.
Bookman99R: OTOH, "what you will pay for it" doesn't really cover monopoly & fraud TheCOinOz: Which fails due to differing skill levels in modern/industrial/scientific societies.
AGplusone: your mudpie isn't worth my pizza pie and so there!
kategladstone@mac.com: Yes, but the society defined certain beliefs (e.g., "symbolic cannibalism") as anti-social/damaging ... a57thornton: "From each according to their ability; to each accordkng to their political pull" Kim Kinnison999 has entered the room.
BPRAL22169: 19th century economists were always coming up with monistic theories that all spiraled into economic collapse. TheCOinOz: exactly. Apply it to a doctor v a ditch digger.
kategladstone@mac.com: ... remember that the entire membership of certain religions went into FUTL'
kategladstone@mac.com: 's Coventry rather than submit to re-education?
BPRAL22169: Ah, thre we have the working principle of Soviet communism. a57thornton: Economies are non-linear TheCOinOz: which is more valuable to a community. Bear in mind almost anyone can dig a ditch, but not just anyone can remove your appendix without killing you.
BPRAL22169: Exactly
LanaiHoward: The pizza I had tonight is making me a bit queasy. If necessary, I might take Kaopectate, an ingredient of which is finely divided clay. Raw mudpie?
BPRAL22169: Economies are nonlinear.
AGplusone: RAH says that the role of government is to take care of monopoly and fraud ... he doesn't leave it alone, Rusty.
kategladstone@mac.com: Does the nonlinearity of economies enter into FUTL's "economics game"?
BPRAL22169: Yes, Kate, they made a choice to not participate in this social order but to participate in a social order they liked better.
AGplusone: Good riddance.
LanaiHoward: Actually, taking the appendix out isn't fantastically complicated. Making sure the patient wakes up from the anesthesia, without infection, is another matter entirely.
kategladstone@mac.com: Yes - but how free a "choice," I sometimes wonder?
Bookman99R: didn't say so, David - was pointing out a loophole to that "demand" theory
OscagneTX: Ah, hell. Who needs anesthesia... TheCOinOz: Note that I said, 'Without killing you"
OscagneTX: "Hold 'im down, boys!"
BPRAL22169: Well, they aren't free to not-participate in Covenant society and yet participate in it at the same time ...
kategladstone@mac.com: If you believe in "symbolic cannibalism," does the "nauseatingness" of that belief suffice to force you to choose between Coventry or a "cure"?
LanaiHoward: Where, Kate, is the border between social disapproval of certain choices, and anticipatory action by some flavor of thought police?...
kategladstone@mac.com: Agreed - you can't have it both ways. I wonder about the kids born in Coventry. Do they just stay there?
kategladstone@mac.com: My question exactly - FUTL comes a shade too close to "thought police" for my liking (even where I agree with ideas of theirs).
Merfilly27: To have complete freedom of your private actions, so long as no other's freedom is inhibited, I got the impression FUTL was very conformist
BPRAL22169: I don't feel qualified to comment on their choices, but I am pretty confident that they were offered a choice and took the one they thought best for themselves.
AGplusone: They come out sometimes, like Libby and get put to work in the CCS, Kate. TheCOinOz: In theory they would be citizens on majority, as they have not committed an offence to be placed there.
BPRAL22169: I dont recall why they were offered the choice.
LanaiHoward: Thought police, incidentally, was not just Orwellian -- it was a branch of the Japanese Home Ministry in the 20s-30s -- but also examined revolutionary ideas to see if they might have value
DavidWrightSr: The only fallacy that I have thought of might be that even though 'production = means to purchase it" might fall down when the actual demand for something is less than the amounts produced
kategladstone@mac.com: FUTL seems to combine very-high-conformist areas with very-low-conformist areas of practice/belief.
BPRAL22169: The exception, COinOZ, would be at the establishment of the Covenant. TheCOinOz: So they should be free to leave. Whether they would function well there is another matter, I suspect they would screw up and find themselves back in.
BPRAL22169: i.e., when the explicit social contract would be made.
kategladstone@mac.com: And I LIKE the idea of examining revolutionary notions for possible acceptance! - VERY "Heinleinian" in spirit! Krin135 has entered the room.
BPRAL22169: Some people in "Coventry"'s Coventry opted out of Coventry, too.
AGplusone: You presumably get the indoctrination before coming past the Barrier if you're a child.
OscagneTX: howdy, chuck.
Bookman99R: Merfilly - isn't "non-conformist society" a contradiction?
AGplusone: Then it's up to you ... you can always get sent back. Krin135: evening all...just got back from work... TheCOinOz: Something like that I imagine
Merfilly27: Hi there
Merfilly27: it might be, Rusty...but then, I'd prefer to be a rational anarchist anyday of the week
aggirlj: Ohhhhh, pretty blue . . .
kategladstone@mac.com: Yes - but ... I wonder: did Coventry moms and dads try to keep the kids from going to the exit-the-Barrier pickup-point?
kategladstone@mac.com: Hi, Krin!
LanaiHoward: Darn it, Chuck...I was just doing the figurative appendectomy.
DavidWrightSr: Hi Doc. Welcome Krin135: Steph, Os, David, David, Howard, Krin135: Kate, Krin135: whew...and the rest of you folks
starfall2 has entered the room.
AGplusone: Of course they did. Live on the peaks of hills and follow your sects prophet. Great life!
aggirlj: <----Jane
Merfilly27: hey
DavidWrightSr: Hi Jackie.
kategladstone@mac.com: After all, I can't imagine that Coventry's Scudderites (in FUTL or the short story "Coventry") would just LET their kids walk out to where they could get the proper briefing to rejoin society.
starfall2: hi Krin135: oh? on what, Howard?
Bookman99R: So let's found the rational Anarchist's
club: Who can be a member?
AGplusone: Sorta like Eleanor Johnson, right?
kategladstone@mac.com: Wouldn't they tell the kids to "stay away from there because Satan dwells in that place" or something? Krin135: Dee TheCOinOz: probably most people here would qualify.
AGplusone: Of course they do.
Bookman99R: hi, Chuck
DavidWrightSr: Everybod already is a member of the Rational Anarchists Club.
BPRAL22169: I'm a little vague on what point is being approached.
kategladstone@mac.com: Define "rational" - then we have 1/2 the membership requirements. (would we all pass?) ;-)
aggirlj: Hi Chuck.
Merfilly27: lol
Bookman99R: lol, Dave
LanaiHoward: Chuck, someone was talking about Marxian value in taking out appendices...I was suggesting the real value was in the anesthesia. Krin135: Kate, I'm not even sure I could pass 'rational' right now
kategladstone@mac.com: I'd hate to undergo the knife sans anesthesia.
Merfilly27: I know I'm none too rational now...too many juveniles Krin135: mmm...the value of the anesthesiologist is in the waking ujp TheCOinOz: I don't think I'd like to let a labourer take out my appendix, even with an anaesthetic. Krin135: up...
Bookman99R: It _is_ amazing how rigid and conformist some "counterculture" groups can be
OscagneTX: FWIU, the communist took lots of appendices out . . . to keep folks from finding out the meanings of ungood words. (that was weak) Krin135: chuckle...yep, Rusty...esp the teen groups
Bookman99R: (Often in the name of "freedom" TheCOinOz: Assuming that he knew how to give enough to not stop me waking up TheCOinOz: That would be an additional hazard.
kategladstone@mac.com: Back in the Roman Empire, they used to give you three stiff drinks (or make you go to the local tavern to buy them), then perhaps a bit of opium, then have a big burly guy knock you out with a blow to the head - NO THANKS!
AGplusone: I like the group near Mormon Meadows ... Colorado City ... that Kate posted.
DavidWrightSr: Wow. 20 at one time, I think that that is a record.
kategladstone@mac.com: You like them? Or you like learning about them? (big difference!) Krin135: that, Oz...is the difference
AGplusone: No, we've had more for Ginny and several guest chats.
OscagneTX: David... other than Mrs. H's wake, I think it is a record.
LanaiHoward: No kidding, RtB. My first wife dated someone (Written up in _It Usually Begins with Ayn Rand_) who styled himself "dictator of a libertarian commune" Kim Kinnison999: concussion/skull fracture is contraindicated with this regimin georule1861: Bill, do you think FUTL helps or hurts RAH's lit'ry reputation, particularly vis-a-vis the reevaluation
kategladstone@mac.com: How did the libertarian commune operate? (I haven't yet read the book you named) Krin135: Kim...the concussion is easy...the fracture harder
kategladstone@mac.com: Yeah, but the Romans might not have figured that out ... georule1861: of thematic progression over his career.
AGplusone: Dictatorship
kategladstone@mac.com: ... sometimes, in point of fact, the big burly guys would just hold you down instead of knocking you out.
kategladstone@mac.com: It depended on your doctor, I guess. Krin135: chuckle...even as late as the American uncivil war
LanaiHoward: CO, I once heard an anesthesiologist describe his job as "killing people, but not quite." Also said putting you to sleep was easy, getting you to wake up was the challenge
Merfilly27: FUTL still picks up RAH's reputation of looking ahead, IMHO
kategladstone@mac.com: My sister, an anesthesiologist, says just the same. Krin135: and into the Crimean war...it was a point of pride in how fast a surgeon could operatge Krin135: operate
Bookman99R: "Libertarian dictator" lol
BPRAL22169: Geo, "helps" or "hurts" is a question-begging term. It cannot hurt to have it in print -- and I seriously doubt it will cause a dip in his commercial reputation, which is another matter entirely. Krin135: that is very apt, HOward
LanaiHoward: vewwwy, vewwwy strangely. Jared wore a black jumpsuit with a gold dollar sign on the chest much of the time, keeping his golden cape for formal occasions. Krin135: BP....if The Movie (spit!) didn't cause a dip in RAH's commercial rep
Reilloc has entered the room.
kategladstone@mac.com: Some kinds of anesthesia *don't* anesthetize - they just prevent your brain from keeping a mental record of the pain you underwent (like disabling your built-in SAVE button) - or so I have heard (e.g., "twilight sleep).
Bookman99R: Yeh, I recall your post
AGplusone: What do we think about the argument that a first time reader shouldn't be referred to FUTL? Is that a valid point, especially if readers have no preconception what to expect?
kategladstone@mac.com: I'd have loved to see him in his jumpsuit! Krin135: there is *nothing* that you can publish that would cause a problem georule1861: I was thinking of people like Asimov who wished that RAH's progression had stopped in 1956, never
aggirlj: I was commenting on that earlier.
BPRAL22169: Yeah. If he could survive Starship hock-ptui Troopers the movie, FUTL aint going to hurt him
DavidWrightSr: I think that it should provide a tremendous springboard into the study of RAH simply because of the vast amount of concepts that have their seeds there. georule1861: realizing that in fact the later Heinlein was always there, muzzled until he could cut loose. . . Krin135: Kate, the drugs we use now a days for that are supposed to be used
LanaiHoward: yes kate -- dissociative anesthesia, as with ketamine and droperidol. Probably more used for quick painful procedures like dressing changes in burn patients Krin135: with at least analgesics...if not true anesthetics
kategladstone@mac.com: I worry (and suspect others may worryt) that people likely to enjoy most of RAH may not "cotton to" FUTL, and _vice_versa_, because of the change in RAH's attitudes after writing FUTL.
Merfilly27: I think the foreword and afterword do a good job of saying this is not his norm, but a sketch of what he could be
BPRAL22169: Change of attitudes?
DavidWrightSr: I don't really see that change myself.
aggirlj: I think it says a hell of a lot for him and what he must have learned after writing this.
kategladstone@mac.com: YUes, when I had such anesthesia I had it with loads of analgesics. But I've heard stories about mistakes/omissions (remember, my trade concerns medical errors).
AGplusone: would be ... maybe ... smoother, better, but here it is unadulaterated, Stephanie?
Bookman99R: change of "sales pitches", perhaps
Caine1959: to me, the forward and afterward were some of the most rewarding parts
DavidWrightSr: Well, not completely that is.
Merfilly27: I don't either...FUTL fits too well with "later" RAH for me
LanaiHoward: Right, Chuck. Stress and shock doesn't need higher brain activity to be triggered.
kategladstone@mac.com: I preferred the Foreword and Afterword to at least some of what I read in-between.
AGplusone: Nice to see you here, Ron, btw.
Merfilly27: Yes, David, that's it
BPRAL22169: It's true, FUTL seems more seamless with To Sail Beyond the Sunset than with, say, Time for the Stars.
LanaiHoward: Kate, other than for the most trivial things, it would be extremely rare to use only one or two drugs in surgical anesthesia a57thornton: different audience
Merfilly27: or, more like an filled in outline, not quite a true book georule1861: I wanted to argue with Spider (I think) about defining "pub