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Thursday 03-07-2002 9:00 P.M.
Another Robert's Mysteries
Return to Index
Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
From: "David Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net>
Subject: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Date: Monday, February 25, 2002 10:46 PM
Robert Heinlein Reading Group chat
Theme: Another Robert's Mysteries (in preparation for author Robert
Crais' guest visit on Thursday, March 21)
Dates and times: Thursday, March 7, 2002, 9 PM to midnight, EST and
Saturday, March 9, 2002, 5 PM to 8 PM, EST.
Chat Host: Agplusone
Place: AIM chatroom "Heinlein Readers Group chat"
Recommended Reading: Robert Crais' novel _L.A. Requiem_ (1999, Ballantine PB ISBN 0-345-43447-1) and _Hostage_ (2001, Doubleday HB, ISBN 0-385-49585-4) and others, as references to them may arise.
This meeting prepares for one in the ongoing series of guest author visits, speaking generally to the topic of Robert A. Heinlein's inspiration on them and their writings. Mr. Crais will visit on Thursday, March 21. More details later.
In February 2000, many of us who regularly read alt.fan.heinlein were suprised to find a "visitor," whom many of us did not recognize, had posted the results of his visit to Colorado Springs, referring us to his website where we found photographs of the interior of the fabled bombshelter Robert and Virginia Heinlein had placed in the home they had designed and built in the early 1950s.
See, http://www.robertcrais.com/worldheinlein.htm
Robert apparently visited the site during a rebuilding about five years earlier, and took the photos. He'd described the shelter years earlier, at a time (roughly 1997-1999) when he was more or less a regular in this newsgroup.
One thing his posts back then do not mention is his occupation. When he posted the website photos, that was, so far as I can discover, the first hint to many that he was a writer himself.
Who he was, and how he became who he is, as always, in our visitor chats, important; but I'll leave that up to his own explanation, contained in this interview on his website: http://www.robertcrais.com/interview.htm> and what he chooses to tell us two weeks from our next meetings.
Except for one statement: "I grew up reading science fiction and fantasy. Robert Heinlein, Ray Bradbury, people like that. Heinlein was a major, major influence on me, not only on my work, but on me as a boy trying to become a man. So much so that I'll return to his work every couple of years and reread those books which mean the most to me."
But for now, let's look at his books, themselves. After some early short stories, science-fiction ones, there came a series of mystery-dectective adventure stories, all involving two partners, Elvis Cole, the point-of-view character, and his partner, the somewhat obscure, very unique, and sometimes utterly terrifying Joe Pike.
I suggest we start discussion with these: there are eight of them, with a ninth due out in August this year.
These are, in order:
The Monkey's Raincoat
Stalking the Angel
Lullaby Town
Free Fall
Voodoo River
Sunset Express,
*Indigo Slam, and the latest, L.A. Requiem.
*Indigo Slam is a little hard to find as it was not published in the United States, but in the United Kingdom. An U.S. edition is also due out in August.
We can move on to Hostage and Demolition Angel, his non-Cole-Pike novels later; but let's begin with L.A. Requiem.
It's perhaps unfair that we have to do this, but I think we might as well start reading the latest of the series. It will be probably most easily obtained; and it was, for Robert Crais, the 'blockbuster, break-out' novel that attracted bestseller attention. It is, I think, his best of the Cole-Pike novels; and the reason I think it is the best is this:
It breaks out of genre conventions by truly showing developing characters.
Character development was Robert Heinlein's raison d'art.
Both Cole and Pike are developing characters in L.A. Requiem.
Cole breaks out of a fairly self-satisfied rut as the irreverent Hollywood private detective, an ageing bachelor living with his black tomcat in an A-Frame overlooking Hollywood, riding forth on occasion to do well, more of less, by doing good, more or less.
Pike is another story entirely. Pike is what I characterize, when I find him, either in books or in the rare real life form, as a "dragon's tooth." Let me say that in a real life of fifty-mumble years, I've met exactly two, that I know of for certain.
They are larger than live and, sadly, I think, sometimes live less than full lives, either in duration or quality. Seeing them portrayed well in fiction is unusual. I can think of one other, right now, done as well as Robert Crais has done Joe Pike -- that is: Stephen Hunter's Bob Lee Swagger ("Bob the Nailer").
You may read an excerpt of the novel, the first seven pages in fact, which is a flashback, here: http://www.robertcrais.com/excerptlarequiem.htm
I think I'll wait a couple days for those of you interested in these truly good novels to acquire them before I start talking about the character development of Cole and Pike.
Let me throw the floor open, however, to any of you . . . and expect a plot summary, at least of the opening chapters (basically the substance if not the form of opening paragraphs of a classic five-paragraph mission order, if I can remember what they are, so to speak), of L.A. Requiem, in the next day or so.
To attend our chats, and any reasonable person is welcome, you may receive instructions on how to download and use AIM freeware on the website located at http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html
Email me ( ag.plusone@verizon.net or agplusone@aol.com ), or Dave Wright, Sr, ( dwrighsr@alltel.net ) if you require further help getting the freeware or getting into the room.
As always, the more pre-meeting posts we have, the better our chats.
-- David M. Silver http://www.heinleinsociety.org http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!" Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29 Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)
From: James Gifford (jgifford@surewest.not)
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-02-25 19:51:09 PST
David Silver wrote:
>Pike is another story entirely. Pike is what I characterize, when I find >him, either in books or in the rare real life form, as a "dragon's >tooth." Let me say that in a real life of fifty-mumble years, I've met >exactly two, that I know of for certain.
A dragon's tooth as in a warrior grown from seed?
Good characterization of Pike. Every time I say something admiring about him, Audrey looks at me blankly and says, "But he's a *psycho*!"
-- | James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press | | http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more | | Tired of auto-spam... change "not" to "net" for replies |
From: David Silver (ag.plusone@verizon.net)
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-02-25 20:04:04 PST
James Gifford wrote:
>David Silver wrote: > >>Pike is another story entirely. Pike is what I characterize, when I >>find him, either in books or in the rare real life form, as a >>"dragon's tooth." Let me say that in a real life of fifty-mumble >>years, I've met exactly two, that I know of for certain. > > > >A dragon's tooth as in a warrior grown from seed? > >Good characterization of Pike. Every time I say something admiring about >him, Audrey looks at me blankly and says, "But he's a *psycho*!" >Hard to tell apart -- you'll love him or he'll terrify you. Sometimes both at once.
--
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)
From: David Silver (ag.plusone@verizon.net)
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-02-26 08:41:51 PST
David Silver wrote:
>James Gifford wrote: > >>David Silver wrote: >> >>>Pike is another story entirely. Pike is what I characterize, when I >>>find him, either in books or in the rare real life form, as a >>>"dragon's tooth." Let me say that in a real life of fifty-mumble >>>years, I've met exactly two, that I know of for certain. >> >> >> >> >>A dragon's tooth as in a warrior grown from seed? >> >>Good characterization of Pike. Every time I say something admiring >>about him, Audrey looks at me blankly and says, "But he's a *psycho*!" >> > >Hard to tell apart -- you'll love him or he'll terrify you. Sometimes >both at once. >
That was the short answer. Here comes the long one, another of my notorious "brief" essays:
The term "dragon's teeth" is an allusion pertaining to an episode in the epic we call The Voyages of the Argonauts, or Jason and the Golden Fleece. Unlike the epics The Iliad or The Odyssey, attributed to Homer, the blind Greek poet of antiquity, of whom we know only his name and blindness, we know with precision who wrote the Argonautica; and we know more than a bit about political and literary atmosphere of those times. He was Apollonius Rhodius, born between 300 and 250 years BCE, in Alexandria, Egypt, during the time the Greek-derived Ptolemies ruled Egypt [Ptolemy Soter founded the famous library).
Apollonius studied under Callimachus and, while still a youth, wrote and recited in public his Argonautica. There are references to a quarrel with his master Callimachus at this time. Perhaps as a result, the Poem was condemned by Alexandrians; in consequence he retired to Rhodes and there revised it, then recited it to great applause, and thereafter called himself a Rhodian. It is said by some he returned then to Alexandria, recited his epic again to great success, and thereafter, towards the end of a long life, during the time of Ptolemy Euergetes, was rewarded when he succeeded Eratosthenes in the headship of the Alexandrian Library.
At the time of its writing, literature of taking stock of itself. Epics were out of style; and Callimachus, his teacher, was one who directed criticism against the so-called "cyclic poets," those who wrote epics and dragged in conventional and commonplace phrases particular to the epics following Homer. Callimachus was in accordance with the spirit of the age when he proclaimed "a great book" to be "a great evil." Callimachus also conselled against literary political illusions. By writing and presenting an epic which did contain, among other things, allusions to political matters, his student exposed himself to the teacher's wrath.
Briefly, the story involves Jason, one of literature's many "lost princes" and an aspirant to a throne occupied by one Pelias. Pelias orders Jason to seek out, obtain, and return to him the fabled Golden Fleece which happens to be owned by another king, Aeestes of Colchis. The motive for the voyage ordered by Pelias is to destroy Jason by sending him on an impossible task. Among other things undisclosed to Jason, Pelias knows Aeestes is not likely to give up his treasure willingly. Jason's vessel is the Argo, and he gathers together heroes to crew it. Off they go. Various adventures ensue.
Unlike the heroes of Homer, Jason is the familiar 'modern-day' sort. He is indecisve, fearful, lacks confidence, etc. and is the sort Achilles would have ordered out of his way or brushed aside with the flat of his sword and Odysseus would have smiled sweetly at and faked out of his socks (and then cut his throat, because Odysseus was never stupid enough to leave a live enemy behind).
But the great redeeming of Jason is his finding and falling in love with Medea, whose counsel and "magic" fortifies her lover.
There is a good copy of it, translated into English, on line.
[See, http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Argonautica/ from which most of the above is cribbed in short form.]
At http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Argonautica/book3.html we get down to the nut-harvesting, so to speak; but before I do, let me say, you should read it, and not this cribbed, corrected, but probably still inaccurate, rewritten summary from another site:
When they reach Colchis, Jason tells King Aeetes they've come for the Golden Fleece. The king does not reveal his malign intent to destroy Jason and keep the Fleece, but tells Jason he must earn the Golden Fleece by proving his courage and strength. He must harness a pair of bulls, sow, and then harvest the crop of a field before sundown.
There's a little problem here: several actually, but we'll pass quickly by the ferocious fire-snorting bulls to the main point. The 'seed' provided happens to be teeth from a legendary dragon, slain by an earlier hero, and presented as gift to the King and folk of Colchis. They grow ferocious, giant, unstoppable, and unstopping warriors. Turn one of these guys on, point him in the right direction, and stand back to watch the entertaining slaughter!
Prior hereto, the gods, or rather a couple of godesses, had intervened: Hera favored Jason, so she told Aphrodite to have her son Eros shoot an arrow into the heart of Medea, King Aeetes' daughter. Struck by Eros' arrow, Medea fell instantly in love with the handsome young hero. Nor was Medea just any beautiful princess. She was also a priestess of Hecate, and a powerful, skilled sorceress--just as her Aunt Circe, who had transformed Odysseus's men into animals. That night Medea visits Jason and armors him with magical oil, which will protect him from the hooves and the fiery breath of her father's bulls. She also gifts him a bit of advice about the psychology of inhabitants of Colchis. The next day, Jason fearlessly approaches the bulls and harnesses them. With such power yoked, Jason makes short work of sowing the bag of seed he had been given.
Jason sows the seed as quickly as possible and gets out of the way. From each sown tooth springs forth an armed giant warrior [you didn't expect Steve's grits, did you?], until the field is crowded with armed men. Now it's time to harvest the nuts, so to speak, as I said before. The oil that had protected him from the bulls also gave him some protection from the warriors, but no matter how many Jason kills, there are always more to attack him. As Jason becomes too tired to keep up the battle, he remembers the counsel Medea had given him about the inhabitants of Colchis. He tosses a rock that hits one of the warriors on the back of his head. Thinking another dragon-seed warrior had struck him, the first one attacks his comrade. A few more well-placed rocks soon had the entire army of dragon-warriors fighting with each other, until not one was left alive.
So much for Jason.Ultimately, Jason picks up the Fleece, and sails off to herohood.
Describing Joe Pike as a "dragon's tooth" isn't exactly accurate, however. Joe's not quite that stupid. To find out why, you know the drill: go buy the book . . . and we'll talk about it further here, and a week from Thursday.
--
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
From: Jane Davitt (jdavitt01@rogers.com)
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-02-26 09:39:34 PST
James Gifford wrote:
>A dragon's tooth as in a warrior grown from seed? > >Good characterization of Pike. Every time I say something admiring about >him, Audrey looks at me blankly and says, "But he's a *psycho*!" >Hmm..I think he's sexy myself. If Audrey is right, then I'm weird...she has to be wrong :-))
Jane
From: David Silver (ag.plusone@verizon.net)
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-02-26 14:08:09 PST
Jane Davitt wrote:
>James Gifford wrote: > > >>A dragon's tooth as in a warrior grown from seed? >> >>Good characterization of Pike. Every time I say something admiring >>about him, Audrey looks at me blankly and says, "But he's a *psycho*!" >>
By the way, Jim, tell Audrey we'd be pleased to have her join the chat.
> >Hmm..I think he's sexy myself. If Audrey is right, then I'm weird...she >has to be wrong :-))
Jane: Let me ask this: What did you think of the scene in the second flashback of L.A. Requiem, quoting for evaluation of Crais' style here:
" . . . Pike's window came down and he looked out at her. 'Yes, Ma'am?'
"Karen Garcia leaned forward with her hands on the window. 'I have a
request.'
"He stared at her, and her mouth went dry. She absolutely knew she was
making a fool of herself. 'Would you take off your glasses, please? I'd
like to see your eyes.'
"The older officer made a face like he wanted to spit; irritated, as if
she had interrupted something. 'Oh, for Christ's sake.'
"Officer Pike took off his dark glasses, and looked at her.
"She felt her breath catch. His eyes were the most liquid blue, the blue
of the sky over the high deserts of Sonora, the blue of the ocean that
has no bottom, and is infinitely clean. But it wasn't the blue that
stopped her breath. For just a moment when the glasses were pulled away,
she could have sworn that those eyes were filled with the most terrible
and long-endured pain. Then the pain was gone and there was only the blue.
"Karen Garcia said, 'Would you like to go to a movie with me this Friday
night?'
"Pike stared at her for so many hartbeats that she wondered if she'd
really spoken the words aloud. But then, slowly, he fitted the dark
glasses over the incredible eyes again and put out his hand for her to
take. 'My name is Joe. May I have your phone number?'
"When he touched her, she quivered."
-- L.A. Requiem, end of Chapter 3
What do you (or anyone else) think about Crais descriptive abilities?
His style? His ability to create an emotive scene?
--
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-02-26 14:47:39 PST
"David Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net>wrote in message news:3C7C06BF.6020408@verizon.net...
>Jane Davitt wrote: > >>James Gifford wrote: >> >> >>>A dragon's tooth as in a warrior grown from seed? >>> >>>Good characterization of Pike. Every time I say something admiring >>>about him, Audrey looks at me blankly and says, "But he's a *psycho*!" >>> > > >By the way, Jim, tell Audrey we'd be pleased to have her join the chat. > > >> >>Hmm..I think he's sexy myself. If Audrey is right, then I'm weird...she >>has to be wrong :-)) > >Jane: Let me ask this: What did you think of the scene in the second >flashback of L.A. Requiem, quoting for evaluation of Crais' style here: > >" . . . Pike's window came down and he looked out at her. 'Yes, Ma'am?' > >"Karen Garcia leaned forward with her hands on the window. 'I have a >request.' > >"He stared at her, and her mouth went dry. She absolutely knew she was >making a fool of herself. 'Would you take off your glasses, please? I'd >like to see your eyes.' > >"The older officer made a face like he wanted to spit; irritated, as if >she had interrupted something. 'Oh, for Christ's sake.' > >"Officer Pike took off his dark glasses, and looked at her. > >"She felt her breath catch. His eyes were the most liquid blue, the blue >of the sky over the high deserts of Sonora, the blue of the ocean that >has no bottom, and is infinitely clean. But it wasn't the blue that >stopped her breath. For just a moment when the glasses were pulled away, >she could have sworn that those eyes were filled with the most terrible >and long-endured pain. Then the pain was gone and there was only the blue. > >"Karen Garcia said, 'Would you like to go to a movie with me this Friday >night?' > >"Pike stared at her for so many hartbeats that she wondered if she'd >really spoken the words aloud. But then, slowly, he fitted the dark >glasses over the incredible eyes again and put out his hand for her to >take. 'My name is Joe. May I have your phone number?' > >"When he touched her, she quivered." >-- L.A. Requiem, end of Chapter 3 > >What do you (or anyone else) think about Crais descriptive abilities? >His style? His ability to create an emotive scene? > >-- >David M. Silver
I like it myself. Very original and powerful and nothing hackneyed in the entire scene, and it's probably pretty hard to do anthing very creative in a boy-meets-girl scene anymore. Just hard-hitting, concise and very expressive prose.
--Steve B.
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-02-26 15:30:27 PST
>What do you (or anyone else) think about Crais descriptive abilities? >His style? His ability to create an emotive scene?It seems to me occasionally that Crais is trying too hard. I get that feeling occasionally from Poul Anderson, too. I found Elvis Cole's self-evaluation and self-description a little disturbing at times -- just a little too self-approving for my tastes . . . though that is a matter of taste.
As some other poster has remarked, the Hard Boiled Dick genre has been very extensively worked, and it's tough to distinguish oneself. I think Crais is generally successful, and I also think he makes a more credible 'successor to Raymond Chandler" than Robert Parker does.
Bill
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-02-26 19:22:43 PST
BPRAL22169 wrote:
>>What do you (or anyone else) think about Crais descriptive abilities? >>His style? His ability to create an emotive scene? > >It seems to me occasionally that Crais is trying too hard. I get that feeling >occasionally from Poul Anderson, too. I found Elvis Cole's >self-evaluation and self-description a little disturbing at times -- just >a little too self-approving for my tastes . . . though that is a matter of taste. > >As some other poster has remarked, the Hard Boiled Dick genre has been very >extensively worked, and it's tough to distinguish oneself. I think Crais >is generally successful, and I also think he makes a more credible >'successor to Raymond Chandler" than Robert Parker does.Probably my favorite item in that "genre" is _The Jehovah Contract_ by Victor Koman. (Although Del Ammo isn't a detective, he's a career assassin). Previous dead-tree editions out of print, but available from www.pulpless.com. (Vic's later Prometheus-winning novel, a great Heinlein tribute, _Kings of the High Frontier_ is available electronically from Pulpless or as a hardcover from www.bereshith.com. Yes, I've plugged the book in this newsgroup before, and I probably will again).
"I've seen it all and I've done half of it. Frankly, I was ready to cash it
in. So the word from the doctor didn't hit me too hard. I was halfway
through the Times when Evangeline, his nurse, poked her gorgeous
head into the waiting room and glanced toward me. Her fawn eyes
misted as though she had just said good-bye to a beloved teddy bear."
The first paragraph of _The Jehovah Contract_
-- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd@comcast.net It's questionable for a doctor to get involved with one of his patients. For a vet, it's right out. Freefall Comic 3/23/2001
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-02-27 16:34:22 PST
Ward Griffiths wrote:
>BPRAL22169 wrote: > > >>>What do you (or anyone else) think about Crais descriptive abilities? >>>His style? His ability to create an emotive scene? >>> >>It seems to me occasionally that Crais is trying too hard. I get that >>feeling >>occasionally from Poul Anderson, too. I found Elvis Cole's >>self-evaluation and self-description a little disturbing at times -- just >>a little too self-approving for my tastes . . . though that is a matter of >>taste. >>Bill: On this piggyback to Ward, I can't say I disagree about Elvis being a bit too self-approving in the earlier novels. L.A. Requiem begins to put an end to that, which is why I think it's a character development novel for him as well as Pike.
>>As some other poster has remarked, the Hard Boiled Dick genre has been very >>extensively worked, and it's tough to distinguish oneself. I think Crais >>is generally successful, and I also think he makes a more credible >>'successor to Raymond Chandler" than Robert Parker does. >> > >Probably my favorite item in that "genre" is _The Jehovah Contract_ by >Victor Koman. (Although Del Ammo isn't a detective, he's a career >assassin). Previous dead-tree editions out of print, but available from >www.pulpless.com. (Vic's later Prometheus-winning novel, a great Heinlein >tribute, _Kings of the High Frontier_ is available electronically from >Pulpless or as a hardcover from www.bereshith.com. Yes, I've plugged the >book in this newsgroup before, and I probably will again). > >"I've seen it all and I've done half of it. Frankly, I was ready to cash it >in. So the word from the doctor didn't hit me too hard. I was halfway >through the Times when Evangeline, his nurse, poked her gorgeous >head into the waiting room and glanced toward me. Her fawn eyes >misted as though she had just said good-bye to a beloved teddy bear." > The first paragraph of _The Jehovah Contract_ >Ward: Victor Koman joined The Heinlein Society some time back.
I've written him asking him consider being one of our chat guest authors.
I'm waiting to hear back -- if you contact him occasionally, let him know, please.
--
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-02-27 15:10:58 PST
On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:05:53 GMT, in alt.fan.heinlein, David Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net>quoth:
>Jane Davitt wrote: > >>James Gifford wrote: >> >> >>>A dragon's tooth as in a warrior grown from seed? >>> >>>Good characterization of Pike. Every time I say something admiring >>>about him, Audrey looks at me blankly and says, "But he's a *psycho*!" >>> > > >By the way, Jim, tell Audrey we'd be pleased to have her join the chat. > > >> >>Hmm..I think he's sexy myself. If Audrey is right, then I'm weird...she >>has to be wrong :-)) > >Jane: Let me ask this: What did you think of the scene in the second >flashback of L.A. Requiem, quoting for evaluation of Crais' style here: > >" . . . Pike's window came down and he looked out at her. 'Yes, Ma'am?' > >"Karen Garcia leaned forward with her hands on the window. 'I have a >request.' > >"He stared at her, and her mouth went dry. She absolutely knew she was >making a fool of herself. 'Would you take off your glasses, please? I'd >like to see your eyes.' > >"The older officer made a face like he wanted to spit; irritated, as if >she had interrupted something. 'Oh, for Christ's sake.' > >"Officer Pike took off his dark glasses, and looked at her. > >"She felt her breath catch. His eyes were the most liquid blue, the blue >of the sky over the high deserts of Sonora, the blue of the ocean that >has no bottom, and is infinitely clean. But it wasn't the blue that >stopped her breath. For just a moment when the glasses were pulled away, >she could have sworn that those eyes were filled with the most terrible >and long-endured pain. Then the pain was gone and there was only the blue. > > "Karen Garcia said, 'Would you like to go to a movie with me this Friday >night?' > > "Pike stared at her for so many hartbeats that she wondered if she'd >really spoken the words aloud. But then, slowly, he fitted the dark >glasses over the incredible eyes again and put out his hand for her to >take. 'My name is Joe. May I have your phone number?' > > "When he touched her, she quivered." > -- L.A. Requiem, end of Chapter 3 > >What do you (or anyone else) think about Crais descriptive abilities? >His style? His ability to create an emotive scene?
...wow.... <shake>Okay, I have to read this.
-- ~teresa~ ^..^ "Never try to outstubborn a cat." Robert A. Heinlein ^..^ http://www.heinleinsociety.org/ "Blert!!!" quoth Pixel, a small, yellow cat. email me at pixelmeow at aol dot com Yahoo Messenger and AIM id = pixelmeow
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-02-27 15:54:13 PST "Teresa Redmond" wrote:
>...wow.... <shake>Okay, I have to read this. > >-- >~teresa~ >I have now purchased two books based on comments from AFH. "LA Requiem" is one of them. I started it this morning and am halfway through. It is wonderful and I can't wait to go find the rest of Robert Crais' books.
That excerpt is really powerful.
TreetopAngel
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-02-28 03:56:50 PST
TreetopAngel RN, BSN wrote:
>"Teresa Redmond" wrote: > > >>...wow.... <shake>Okay, I have to read this. >> >>-- >>~teresa~ >> >> >I have now purchased two books based on comments from AFH. "LA Requiem" is >one of them. I started it this morning and am halfway through. It is >wonderful and I can't wait to go find the rest of Robert Crais' books. > >That excerpt is really powerful. >Glad you're enjoying it. Hope a lot of you are.
--
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-02-28 09:02:29 PST
David Silver wrote:
>Jane Davitt wrote: > >>James Gifford wrote: >> >> >>>A dragon's tooth as in a warrior grown from seed? >>> >>>Good characterization of Pike. Every time I say something admiring >>>about him, Audrey looks at me blankly and says, "But he's a *psycho*!" >>> > > >By the way, Jim, tell Audrey we'd be pleased to have her join the chat. > > >> >>Hmm..I think he's sexy myself. If Audrey is right, then I'm >>weird...she has to be wrong :-)) > > >Jane: Let me ask this: What did you think of the scene in the second >flashback of L.A. Requiem, quoting for evaluation of Crais' style here: > >" . . . Pike's window came down and he looked out at her. 'Yes, Ma'am?' > >"Karen Garcia leaned forward with her hands on the window. 'I have a >request.' > >"He stared at her, and her mouth went dry. She absolutely knew she >was making a fool of herself. 'Would you take off your glasses, please? >I'd like to see your eyes.' > >"The older officer made a face like he wanted to spit; irritated, as >if she had interrupted something. 'Oh, for Christ's sake.' > >"Officer Pike took off his dark glasses, and looked at her. > >"She felt her breath catch. His eyes were the most liquid blue, the >blue of the sky over the high deserts of Sonora, the blue of the ocean >that has no bottom, and is infinitely clean. But it wasn't the blue that >stopped her breath. For just a moment when the glasses were pulled away, >she could have sworn that those eyes were filled with the most terrible >and long-endured pain. Then the pain was gone and there was only the blue. > >"Karen Garcia said, 'Would you like to go to a movie with me this >Friday night?' > >"Pike stared at her for so many hartbeats that she wondered if she'd >really spoken the words aloud. But then, slowly, he fitted the dark >glasses over the incredible eyes again and put out his hand for her to >take. 'My name is Joe. May I have your phone number?' > >"When he touched her, she quivered." > -- L.A. Requiem, end of Chapter 3 > >What do you (or anyone else) think about Crais descriptive abilities? >His style? His ability to create an emotive scene? > >-- >David M. Silver >http://www.heinleinsociety.org >http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm >"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!" > Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29 > Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988) >I loved that scene and the twist that the story of Joe and Karen will take..hey, Joseph and Karen; an FF reference maybe?
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-02-28 09:21:07 PST
Jane Davitt wrote:
>David Silver wrote: > >> >>What do you (or anyone else) think about Crais descriptive abilities? >>His style? His ability to create an emotive scene? >> > >I loved that scene and the twist that the story of Joe and Karen will >take..hey, Joseph and Karen; an FF reference maybe? >I goofed and this got sent before I'd finished or snipped; I'll try again.
I think you have to read the books in order to see how his style has evolved, getting progressively darker in tone and less reliant on one liners to carry the narrative along. That's not to say the earlier books were bad, they weren't, just that they don't have the polish and confidence of the later ones IMO. Monkey's Raincoat, which I think is the first one, has a very different Cole, incredibly aggravating sometimes because he won't stop joking, and an almost non existent Pike. Now in LA Requiem we get Pike in far more detail (fascinating and heartbreaking in turn) and we've moved away from Cole as being just a generic wise cracking P.I.
I'm hampered in this discussion by a lack of reference points in the hardboiled genre. I've never read a Travis McGee, a Dashiell Hammett...none of that sort of story. I like Paretsky and Grafton, it's not that I stick to cosys but that end of the spectrum seems to be 'for the boys'.
All the jackets mention Crais's books as being part of the hard boiled clan but I like them (and I've read every one, even Indigo Slam) so they can't be :-) Cole has a cat; an indispensable cosy genre tradition. He cooks. He has a romance. The stories have children (well written kids too, with plenty of depth) and they just don't seem to have that brooding, misogynist, always raining feel of the hardboiled story.
Jane
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-02-28 09:37:05 PST
Misogynist? No, the hard-boiled dick is typically hard-boiled to protect an interior life preoccupied with fierce dedication to humanity-loving qualities. Justice and hatred of hypocrisy are two qualities that come to mind as especially prominent in the hard-boiled tradition -- Phillip Marlowe particularly.
Bill
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-02-28 10:19:17 PST
BPRAL22169 wrote:
>Misogynist? No, the hard-boiled dick is typically hard-boiled to protect an >interior life preoccupied with fierce dedication to humanity-loving qualities. >Justice and hatred of hypocrisy are two qualities that come to mind as >especially prominent in the hard-boiled tradition -- Phillip Marlowe >particularly. > >Bill > >Well, I can't argue with that as I've never read any of the Marlowe stories either...I'm just curious as to what it is about the Crais books that makes people label them hard boiled. I can rattle off a list of qualities that make a cosy cosy but I'm at a loss when it comes to this style.
It isn't violence necessarily; I tell you, when it comes to gruesome
ways of dying, a cosy beats a HB hands down. The imagination of some
of those authors is amazing
Jane
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-02-28 11:43:02 PST
Jane Davitt wrote:
>> > >Hmm..I think he's sexy myself. If Audrey is right, then I'm weird...she >has to be wrong :-)) > >Jane >Let me amplify on why he's attractive; he has an aura of complete trustworthiness. If you were his friend, if he loved you, you'd be totally and utterly safe if he was around. He is capable of intense violence but none of it is directed at 'good' people. Now some might say none of it should be directed anywhere but that's another matter.
Add into the mix that pain, vulnerability buried so deep you need a JCB to get to it and the blue eyes and you've got a babe magnet...though the not talking bit would bug me. That's not something most Heinlein heroes have..but there is one precedent; anyone think of a HH who doesn't talk when they haven't got anything to say?
Jane
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-02-28 14:39:14 PST
Jane:
>That's not something most Heinlein heroes have..but there is one >precedent; anyone think of a HH who doesn't talk when they haven't >got anything to say?But it is a fairly common trait for other 'strong, silent' types. I'd guess Manny without looking.
--
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
--Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, (1907-88)
Lt.(jg) USN R'td
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-03-01 07:43:44 PST
David M. Silver wrote:
>Jane: > > >>That's not something most Heinlein heroes have..but there is one >>precedent; anyone think of a HH who doesn't talk when they haven't >>got anything to say? >> > >But it is a fairly common trait for other 'strong, silent' types. I'd guess >Manny without looking. >I was thinking of Mary in Puppet Masters; from memory, "she had that quality, rare in babes, of never speaking when she had nothing to say." Sam had a lot to learn.
Jane
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-03-01 07:56:13 PST
Continuing with the identification of the Heinlein references which appear in each book;
In Demolition Angel, the villain who makes and explodes bombs, uses an alias of Kip Russell and codenames on his computer of Oscar and Peewee <gasp>. How dare he!
Then it clicked; what does the Mother Thing do on Pluto?
"She made two bombs and a long distance communicator-and-beacon." She then times it to explode when various factors converge, one of which is feeding time for the Wormfaces, "They all ate together when there were few enough not to have to use their mess hall in relays - crowded round one big tub and sopping it up,I gathered - a scene out of Dante. That would place all her enemies on one target, except possibly one or two on engineering or communication watches."Mr Red would approve....
Jane
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-03-01 13:07:28 PST
Jane Davitt wrote:
>Continuing with the identification of the Heinlein references which >appear in each book; >
There's also a Buffy the Vampire Slayer reference in Demolition Angel; the heroine was invited to the prom by James Marsters (pause to mop up drool)...I haven't seen any more for Buffy but I'll try and get as many of the Heinlein ones as I can; anyone want to join in looking? Elvis lives on Woodrow Wilson Drive and Laurel Canyon gets mentioned a lot...no tesseract house though.
Jane
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-03-02 08:13:45 PST
This morning I read a post from David asking about a specific incident in L.A Requiem. Now the server says that post has expired <sigh>. I think I can remember it well enough to answer. David, you were wondering why Elvis immediately guessed why two men would go off road and the police didn't.
In cosies as well as hard boiled it all depends on who the heroes are. If it's a Poirot book, then we have bumbling Japp. If it's a Marsh book, the police are brilliant becasue Alleyn is the hero. In Requiem the police are not only not the lead characters but they are biased against Pike; two strikes against them.
It also took Elvis a while to get to the real reason why the men left the trail; he didn't instantly go, 'aha!'. One of the men was married with children (I know, doesn't mean he wasn't homosexual but it also make that assumption lower on the list of possibilities for overworked cops). In fact, Elvis didn't even really find out himself; he visits Riley's office and as Elvis leaves, Riley's secretary, Holly tells Elvis that Riley and Gene are 'very close friends' and that they fell for each other straight away. Once he has that information it all falls into place.
Jane
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-02-28 14:59:54 PST
On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 19:42:44 GMT, in alt.fan.heinlein, Jane Davitt <jdavitt01@rogers.com>quoth:
>Jane Davitt wrote: > > >>> >> >>Hmm..I think he's sexy myself. If Audrey is right, then I'm weird...she >>has to be wrong :-)) >> >>Jane >> > >Let me amplify on why he's attractive; he has an aura of complete >trustworthiness. If you were his friend, if he loved you, you'd be >totally and utterly safe if he was around. He is capable of intense >violence but none of it is directed at 'good' people. >Now some might say none of it should be directed anywhere but that's >another matter. >Add into the mix that pain, vulnerability buried so deep you need a >JCB to get to it and the blue eyes and you've got a babe >magnet...though the not talking bit would bug me. >That's not something most Heinlein heroes have..but there is one >precedent; anyone think of a HH who doesn't talk when they haven't >got anything to say?
Wyoh?
-- ~teresa~ ^..^ "Never try to outstubborn a cat." Robert A. Heinlein ^..^ http://www.heinleinsociety.org/ "Blert!!!" quoth Pixel, a small, yellow cat. email me at pixelmeow at aol dot com Yahoo Messenger and AIM id = pixelmeow
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-03-01 08:02:26 PST
Teresa Redmond wrote:
>>That's not something most Heinlein heroes have..but there is one >>precedent; anyone think of a HH who doesn't talk when they haven't >>got anything to say? >> > >Wyoh? > >
Heh, definitely not; she's a politician :-)) But Hazel as a kid is described as using lip glue.
Jane
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-03-01 10:40:48 PST
On Fri, 01 Mar 2002 16:01:54 GMT, in alt.fan.heinlein, Jane Davitt <jdavitt01@rogers.com>quoth:
>Teresa Redmond wrote: > > >>>That's not something most Heinlein heroes have..but there is one >>>precedent; anyone think of a HH who doesn't talk when they haven't >>>got anything to say? >>> >> >>Wyoh? >> >> > >Heh, definitely not; she's a politician :-)) But Hazel as a kid is >described as using lip glue. >
I saw your post to David, and realized that Mary was who I was originally trying to think of, but had recently read MIAHM and Wyoh was the only one I could bring to mind. Haven't read PM in a while. Both babes, confused them in my mind. :-)
-- ~teresa~ ^..^ "Never try to outstubborn a cat." Robert A. Heinlein ^..^ http://www.heinleinsociety.org/ "Blert!!!" quoth Pixel, a small, yellow cat. email me at pixelmeow at aol dot com Yahoo Messenger and AIM id = pixelmeow
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-03-01 05:20:33 PST
Jane Davitt wrote:
... >anyone think of a HH who doesn't talk when they haven't >got anything to say? >
Paul Dirac?
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-02-28 03:55:14 PST
David Silver wrote:
>Robert Heinlein Reading Group chat > >Theme: Another Robert's Mysteries (in preparation for author Robert >Crais' guest visit on Thursday, March 21) > >Dates and times: Thursday, March 7, 2002, 9 PM to midnight, EST and >Saturday, March 9, 2002, 5 PM to 8 PM, EST. > >Chat Host: Agplusone > >Place: AIM chatroom "Heinlein Readers Group chat" > >Recommended Reading: Robert Crais' novel _L.A. Requiem_ (1999, >Ballantine PB ISBN 0-345-43447-1) and _Hostage_ (2001, Doubleday HB, >ISBN 0-385-49585-4) and others, as references to them may arise. > >
We've one week to go before the chat.
While I'm waiting for enough folk here to acquire copies and read enough of L.A. Requiem to discuss without spoilers, I have another little teaser.
Gradually through the novel we learn quite a bit about Joe Pike, through flashbacks, and here's part of another. Pike is seventeen, enlisted with his father's consent in the USMC. It's 1971 or so, and although Uncle Walter Cronkhite had well assured us it was lost two years earlier, men are still going to Vietnam. Pike is in advanced infantry training at Pendleton; and his gunny has arranged for Pike an interview with another NCO, the one assigned to train replacements for its elite Force Recon.
The scene opens with Pike surprising both the Force Recon sergeant and his gunny by slipping closer to them without detection than both believe possible on a cameoflague and infiltration training range -- or whatever the smaller green machine calls those things. After Pike doffs the ghillie suit and is stood at attention before the Force Recon trainer, Aimes, after some humor, this ensues:
. . . Aimes came around the other side of Pike and stopped in front of
him; only now Aimes had taken anything even remotely humorous from his
eyes and carefully folded it away. "The gunnery sergeant says you're
good at hand-to-hand."
Nothing again, and Aimes wondered why this boy said so little. Maybe he
just came from people who didn't say much.
Aimes unsnapped his fighting knife from its Alice sheath. He held it out
handle first to the boy. "You know what this is?"
The blue eyes never even went to the knife. "It isn't a K-Bar."
Aimes considered his knife. "The standard Marine Corps issue K-Bar
fighting knife is a fine weapon, none finer, but not to a warrior such
as myself." He twirled the knife across the backs of his fingers. "This
is a handmade fighting dagger, custom made to my specifications by a
master blademaker. This edge is so goddamned sharp that if you cut
yourself the asshole standing next to you starts to bleed."
Horse [the gunny] nodded, pursing his lips knowingly as if truer words
were never spoken.
Aimes flipped the knife, caught its tip, then handed it to the boy who
held it in his right hand.
Aimes spread his hands, "Try to put it in my chest."
Pike moved without that moment's hesitation that Aimes expected, and he
moved so damned blurringly fast that Aimes didn't even have time to
think before he trapped the boy's arm, rolled the wrist back, and heard
the awful crack as the wrist gave and the boy went down on his back.
The boy did not grimace, and he did not say a word.
Aimes and Horse both made a big deal, helping the kid to his feet, Aimes
feeling just horrible, feeling like a real horseshit donut for pulling a
bush stunt like that when the private put those blue eyes on him and
said, "What did you do?" Not to accuse or blame, but because he wanted
to know the fact of it.
. . . "That was an arm trap. It's something they do in a fighting art
called Wing Chun. A Chinese woman invented it eight hundred years ago."
"Woman." The boy almost seemed to nod, not quite but almost, thinking it
through. He didn't seem bothered at all that Aimes had just broken his
wrist. He said, "You used me against me. A woman, smaller, would have to
do that."
* * * * *
"Will you teach it to me?"
* * * * *
The young marine didn't speak again until they were at the infirmary,
where, in filling out the accident report, Aimes took full and complete
responsibility for the injury. What the boy said to him then was, "It's
okay you hurt me."
That evening, still feeling nauseated from guilt, Aimes and Horse
practiced the art of unarmed war in the Pendleton gym with an ugly
ferocity that left both men bloody as they tried to burn away their
shame. . . .
Does anyone see what I see here? A hint: as I noted four weeks ago in discussing Robert Heinlein's Mysteries, I love to find tributes, or tips of the hat, to those who have gone before in the writings of those coming along later.
--
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-02-28 09:16:25 PST
David Silver wrote:
> >Does anyone see what I see here? A hint: as I noted four weeks ago in >discussing Robert Heinlein's Mysteries, I love to find tributes, or tips >of the hat, to those who have gone before in the writings of those >coming along later. >
ST, when Breckenridge's wrist gets snapped by Zim?
Jane
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-02-28 11:03:23 PST
"Jane Davitt" <jdavitt01@rogers.com>wrote in message news:3C7E6596.6070501@rogers.com...
>David Silver wrote: > > >> >>Does anyone see what I see here? A hint: as I noted four weeks ago in >>discussing Robert Heinlein's Mysteries, I love to find tributes, or tips >>of the hat, to those who have gone before in the writings of those >>coming along later. >> > >ST, when Breckenridge's wrist gets snapped by Zim? > >Jane >
It's been many years since I last read it, but IIRC, wasn't it a "greenstick fractuh" of his thumb?
--Steve B.
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-02-28 11:36:12 PST
Steve Burwen wrote:
>"Jane Davitt" <jdavitt01@rogers.com>wrote in message >>ST, when Breckenridge's wrist gets snapped by Zim? >> >>Jane >> >> > >It's been many years since I last read it, but IIRC, wasn't it a "greenstick >fractuh" of his thumb? > >--Steve B. >
You made me walk all the way over to my library and check and then I'm right after all. Don't you know exercise is bad for you? <g> It said,
"It started - and it was over. The big recruit was sitting on the ground, holding his left wrist in his right hand. He didn't say anything. Zim bent over him."Broken?" "Reckon it might be...suh." "I'm sorry. You hurried me a little."
What is a greenstick fracture anyway? Green sticks don't snap, they bend?
Jane
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-02-28 12:45:28 PST
"Jane Davitt" <jdavitt01@rogers.com>wrote in message news:3C7E8648.8050602@rogers.com...
<snip> < What is a greenstick fracture anyway? Green sticks don't snap, they bend? > >Jane >
Something else you really don't want your bones to do. Greenstick fractures leave the bone "mostly" whole. There are little splinters coming out at the top of the bend and crushed bone tissue at the bottom. This severely weakens the bone and allows for odd calcium or cartilage deposits between the splinters. And it is terribly painful, to boot!
TreetopAngel
(whose Dad had a greenstick fx of his ankle many moons ago)
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-02-28 14:00:54 PST
Jane Davitt wrote:
>Steve Burwen wrote: > >>"Jane Davitt" <jdavitt01@rogers.com>wrote in message > > >>>ST, when Breckenridge's wrist gets snapped by Zim? >>> >>>Jane >>> [snip] >> > >You made me walk all the way over to my library and check and then I'm >right after all. Don't you know exercise is bad for you? <g> >It said, >"It started - and it was over. The big recruit was sitting on the >ground, holding his left wrist in his right hand. He didn't say anything. >Zim bent over him."Broken?" >"Reckon it might be...suh." >"I'm sorry. You hurried me a little."
So far so good, but . . . look again at the final paragraph I quoted.
Doesn't it look as if he's conflated Zim and Breckenridge into Zim and Frankel after Hendricks? A Twofer?
--
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-02-28 14:14:17 PST
David Silver wrote:
> >So far so good, but . . . look again at the final paragraph I quoted. > >Doesn't it look as if he's conflated Zim and Breckenridge into Zim and >Frankel after Hendricks? A Twofer? >
Lucky for you I hadn't put the book back on the shelf...:-) Yes, Frankel and Zim expiate their guilt by fighting too,
"If you're not too busy this evening, why don't you bring your soft shoes and your pads over to officers' row and we'll go waltzing Matilda? Say about eight o'clock." and a few sentences later, "Seriously, Charlie, we've had a miserable day and it's going to be worse before it gets better. If you and I work up a good sweat and swap a few bumps, maybe we'll be able to sleep tonight despite all of mother's little darlings."
The last few words ring a chord with me; I know how guilty you feel when a child gets hurt through your carelessness, even if it's just a bump followed by a few tears. Can't say I take that way of resolving the issue though but I can dimly get why they do it. They hurt someone and they can't beat themselves up to make it equal out so they do it to each other.
Jane
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-02-28 16:13:03 PST
"David Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net>wrote in message news:3C7E1A9E.8020002@verizon.net...
>David Silver wrote: > >>Robert Heinlein Reading Group chat >> >>Theme: Another Robert's Mysteries (in preparation for author Robert >>Crais' guest visit on Thursday, March 21) >> >>Dates and times: Thursday, March 7, 2002, 9 PM to midnight, EST and >>Saturday, March 9, 2002, 5 PM to 8 PM, EST. >> >>Chat Host: Agplusone >> >>Place: AIM chatroom "Heinlein Readers Group chat" >> >>Recommended Reading: Robert Crais' novel _L.A. Requiem_ (1999, >>Ballantine PB ISBN 0-345-43447-1) and _Hostage_ (2001, Doubleday HB, >>ISBN 0-385-49585-4) and others, as references to them may arise. >> >> > > >We've one week to go before the chat. > > >While I'm waiting for enough folk here to acquire copies and read enough >of L.A. Requiem to discuss without spoilers, I have another little teaser. > >Gradually through the novel we learn quite a bit about Joe Pike, through >flashbacks, and here's part of another. Pike is seventeen, enlisted with >his father's consent in the USMC. It's 1971 or so, and although Uncle >Walter Cronkhite had well assured us it was lost two years earlier, men >are still going to Vietnam. Pike is in advanced infantry training at >Pendleton; and his gunny has arranged for Pike an interview with another >NCO, the one assigned to train replacements for its elite Force Recon. > >The scene opens with Pike surprising both the Force Recon sergeant and >his gunny by slipping closer to them without detection than both believe >possible on a cameoflague and infiltration training range -- or whatever >the smaller green machine calls those things. After Pike doffs the >ghillie suit and is stood at attention before the Force Recon trainer, >Aimes, after some humor, this ensues: > >. . . Aimes came around the other side of Pike and stopped in front of >him; only now Aimes had taken anything even remotely humorous from his >eyes and carefully folded it away. "The gunnery sergeant says you're >good at hand-to-hand." >Nothing again, and Aimes wondered why this boy said so little. Maybe he >just came from people who didn't say much. >Aimes unsnapped his fighting knife from its Alice sheath. He held it out >handle first to the boy. "You know what this is?" >The blue eyes never even went to the knife. "It isn't a K-Bar." >Aimes considered his knife. "The standard Marine Corps issue K-Bar >fighting knife is a fine weapon, none finer, but not to a warrior such >as myself." He twirled the knife across the backs of his fingers. "This >is a handmade fighting dagger, custom made to my specifications by a >master blademaker. This edge is so goddamned sharp that if you cut >yourself the asshole standing next to you starts to bleed." >Horse [the gunny] nodded, pursing his lips knowingly as if truer words >were never spoken. >Aimes flipped the knife, caught its tip, then handed it to the boy who >held it in his right hand. >Aimes spread his hands, "Try to put it in my chest." >Pike moved without that moment's hesitation that Aimes expected, and he >moved so damned blurringly fast that Aimes didn't even have time to >think before he trapped the boy's arm, rolled the wrist back, and heard >the awful crack as the wrist gave and the boy went down on his back. >The boy did not grimace, and he did not say a word. >Aimes and Horse both made a big deal, helping the kid to his feet, Aimes >feeling just horrible, feeling like a real horseshit donut for pulling a >bush stunt like that when the private put those blue eyes on him and >said, "What did you do?" Not to accuse or blame, but because he wanted >to know the fact of it. >. . . "That was an arm trap. It's something they do in a fighting art >called Wing Chun. A Chinese woman invented it eight hundred years ago." >"Woman." The boy almost seemed to nod, not quite but almost, thinking it >through. He didn't seem bothered at all that Aimes had just broken his >wrist. He said, "You used me against me. A woman, smaller, would have to >do that." >* * * * * >"Will you teach it to me?" >* * * * * >The young marine didn't speak again until they were at the infirmary, >where, in filling out the accident report, Aimes took full and complete >responsibility for the injury. What the boy said to him then was, "It's >okay you hurt me." >That evening, still feeling nauseated from guilt, Aimes and Horse >practiced the art of unarmed war in the Pendleton gym with an ugly >ferocity that left both men bloody as they tried to burn away their >shame. . . . > >Does anyone see what I see here? A hint: as I noted four weeks ago in >discussing Robert Heinlein's Mysteries, I love to find tributes, or tips >of the hat, to those who have gone before in the writings of those >coming along later. > >-- > David M. Silver > http://www.heinleinsociety.org > http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm > "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!" > Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29 > Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988) >
Sure sounds like the scene with Zim and Breckinridge in ST.
The particular technique he's referring to here is probably a Chin Na technique, as it's called, rather than simply a trap, which, in Wing Chun, would be used to lead into the Chin Na wristlock. Many kung-fu styles and also tai chi styles incorporate these wrist and armlocking techniques.
--Steve B.
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-03-01 08:30:58 PST
David Silver wrote:
<snip> >But for now, let's look at his books, themselves. After some early short >stories, science-fiction ones, there came a series of mystery-dectective >adventure stories, all involving two partners, Elvis Cole, the >point-of-view character, and his partner, the somewhat obscure, very >unique, and sometimes utterly terrifying Joe Pike. > >I suggest we start discussion with these: there are eight of them, with >a ninth due out in August this year. > >These are, in order: > >The Monkey's Raincoat >Stalking the Angel >Lullaby Town >Free Fall >Voodoo River >Sunset Express, >*Indigo Slam, and the latest, >L.A. Requiem. > >*Indigo Slam is a little hard to find as it was not published in the >United States, but in the United Kingdom. An U.S. edition is also due >out in August. > >We can move on to Hostage and Demolition Angel, his non-Cole-Pike novels >later; but let's begin with L.A. Requiem. >
Wow.. would you believe all but one of his books are available at my local library. (Some are checked out though) And the one that is missing, is Lullaby Town, not Indigo Slam.
How cool. :) Guess I will have to start reading. I might even be able to read them all by the 7th.. depends on how long they are. :)
May even put an interlibrary loan request for Lullaby Town... we'll see.
Helen
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-03-02 00:10:10 PST
David Silver wrote:
>Robert Heinlein Reading Group chat > >Theme: Another Robert's Mysteries (in preparation for author Robert >Crais' guest visit on Thursday, March 21) [snip] >Recommended Reading: Robert Crais' novel _L.A. Requiem_ (1999, >Ballantine PB ISBN 0-345-43447-1) and _Hostage_ (2001, Doubleday HB, >ISBN 0-385-49585-4) and others, as references to them may arise. [snip]
With seven days left to the chat meeting, I suppose there's been enough time for books to be acquired and, at least, partly read, so now it's time to start talking specifically about L.A. Requiem, not teasing with excerpts. Spoilers follow.
L.A. Requiem is a little different than the other Cole-Pike novels. Hitherto, through six of the seven volumes (I haven't read the one published in the U.K.) the series follows a traditional formula. Elvis Cole, the front man of the successful detective firm, is, despite his obnoxious and irreverent attitudes, hired to do various things: protect the studio executive's family, and then recover the missing daughter from the cult that seeks to program her, see why the studio accountant husband disappeared mysteriously and find him if alive, discovery the identity of the parents of the 'adopted' Hollywood Star, and so on -- things that Raymond Chandler asked of Philip Marlowe, and Dashiell Hammet of his "Op," stuff of the sort that occupied Sam Spade, when he wasn't pursuing a love affair with Archer's wife.
Elvis Cole pursues his assignment, more of less cleverly, of solving the mystery, shaking the trees and bushes in his irreverent wise-cracking manner, wearing his loud shirts, the cartoon clock in his office ticking away, until something falls on him, or rattling cages until out of them something evil this way comes.
Now comes the Cole-Pike difference from traditional single operative stories: once Cole is close to accomplishing his assignment and faced with violence by those he's identified as miscreants, in comes the Pike. Crais runs the plot from that point on just as an infantry company in the assault would be run. Elvis Cole takes the role of the lead rifle platoons (his wise-cracking, garishly clothed self) to noisily reconnoiter possibility after possibility until he makes contact with the enemy and is brought under fire, then in rolls Pike just as a maneuver rifle platoon in reserve would be used to flank the enemy and, along with Cole, overrunning and destroying them with the added heavy fire of the weapons platoon.
Pretty slick, and good reading stuff if you like that, which I do if it's cleverly written; and Crais writes cleverly.
Crais has thrown away that formulaic plot, not entirely, but mainly, in L.A. Requiem. There's a detecting job, of course, but it doesn't come in the front door of Cole's office as usual. It isn't being done for pay either. Instead, an old friend of Pike is missing a 30-some-year-old daughter; and she quickly turns out to be dead, shot inexplicably while she was on her morning jog alongside a reservoir in the Hollywood Hills. The old friend is a self-made millionaire with lots of political influence on the city council and that results in the LAPD's downtown Robbery Homicide division being ordered to allow Cole access to their ongoing investigation -- about as likely an order for the LAPD to comply with as your finding hen's teeth in a bowl of chicken noodle soup.
Nevertheless, the LAPD Robbery Homicide division seemingly follows the orders the politicians, in and out of uniform, have issued it. But for half the book, they don't seem to be getting anywhere. Instead, while nothing happens, the first half of the book gives us piecemeal the backstory on Joe Pike, former LAPD officer, who killed his partner and, unjustly, according to most of the LAPD, got away with it -- they obviously hate him.
Finally, midway through the story, because he realizes R-H is feeding him doctored reports, Elvis Cole does his 'detecting' schtick and discovers what Robbery Homicide is really investigating: a series of five serial killings. Just as that occurs, based upon an FBI profile, the lead R-H detective decides to pin the last murder on one of the two guys who discovered the client's daughter's body when they went off a jogging trail into the bushes near a Hollywood Hills reservoir.
The lead R-H detective is a politician, not really up to the par
ordinarily encountered in this elite unit established in real life over
sixty years about by Chief Wild Bill Parker and Chief of Detectives Thad
Brown, which doesn't mean his subordinates are on his level; but they're
his subordinates and take his orders. The Deputy Chief in overall charge
seems of the same stripe of politician behind a badge (probably a result
of influence by the "NEA, unions and rampant liberalism"
The lead detective fixes on his prime suspect because the profile by the Feebies suggests the killer is the sort who would intrude himself into the case [by for example 'discovering' a body] and, under interview, the two guys who found the body when they went into the bushes seem to be hiding something.
Here's the first problem I have with the story; and let's discuss it. Good old politically incorrect I have lived in Los Angeles, except for six years when I was wearing a green suit my rich uncle gave me, since I was an infant. That's fifty-mumble years. Lemme see here now: two thirtish guys, both employed in artistic professions, one living in West Hollywood (known locally to some of the politically incorrect stripe as "Boy's Town") and one in the old Los Feliz area (adjacent to and aka Silverlake, also renowned for being an 'artistic' area) inexplicably duck into the bushes whilst jogging and seem to have something to 'hide.' And it doesn't occur to the pencil-neck in charge, or any of his subordinates to ask if maybe these two fellows were going somewhere where no one could see their intended exchange of affection for each other. I guess political correctness has finally come to the LAPD. Ramona Ripston of the local ACLU will be delighted. We've found another mouthful of hen's teeth, folk.
Elvis, of course, figures it out, not too swiftly or astutely I might add. Why would an author do that to us? Anyone? Jane? You're a fan of cosy mysteries. Do they do that in 'cosy ones,' too?
Why?
--
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-03-02 09:26:46 PST
David Silver wrote:
>David Silver wrote: > >>Robert Heinlein Reading Group chat >> >>Theme: Another Robert's Mysteries (in preparation for author Robert >>Crais' guest visit on Thursday, March 21) > >[snip] > >>Recommended Reading: Robert Crais' novel _L.A. Requiem_ (1999, >>Ballantine PB ISBN 0-345-43447-1) and _Hostage_ (2001, Doubleday HB, >>ISBN 0-385-49585-4) and others, as references to them may arise. > >[snip] > > >With seven days left to the chat meeting, I suppose there's been enough >time for books to be acquired and, at least, partly read, so now it's >time to start talking specifically about L.A. Requiem, not teasing with >excerpts. Spoilers follow. > >L.A. Requiem is a little different than the other Cole-Pike novels. >Hitherto, through six of the seven volumes (I haven't read the one >published in the U.K.) the series follows a traditional formula. Elvis >Cole, the front man of the successful detective firm, is, despite his >obnoxious and irreverent attitudes, hired to do various things: protect >the studio executive's family, and then recover the missing daughter >from the cult that seeks to program her, see why the studio accountant >husband disappeared mysteriously and find him if alive, discovery the >identity of the parents of the 'adopted' Hollywood Star, and so on -- >things that Raymond Chandler asked of Philip Marlowe, and Dashiell >Hammet of his "Op," stuff of the sort that occupied Sam Spade, when he >wasn't pursuing a love affair with Archer's wife. > >Elvis Cole pursues his assignment, more of less cleverly, of solving the >mystery, shaking the trees and bushes in his irreverent wise-cracking >manner, wearing his loud shirts, the cartoon clock in his office ticking >away, until something falls on him, or rattling cages until out of them >something evil this way comes. > >Now comes the Cole-Pike difference from traditional single operative >stories: once Cole is close to accomplishing his assignment and faced >with violence by those he's identified as miscreants, in comes the Pike. >Crais runs the plot from that point on just as an infantry company in >the assault would be run. Elvis Cole takes the role of the lead rifle >platoons (his wise-cracking, garishly clothed self) to noisily >reconnoiter possibility after possibility until he makes contact with >the enemy and is brought under fire, then in rolls Pike just as a >maneuver rifle platoon in reserve would be used to flank the enemy and, >along with Cole, overrunning and destroying them with the added heavy >fire of the weapons platoon. > >Pretty slick, and good reading stuff if you like that, which I do if >it's cleverly written; and Crais writes cleverly. > >Crais has thrown away that formulaic plot, not entirely, but mainly, in >L.A. Requiem. There's a detecting job, of course, but it doesn't come in >the front door of Cole's office as usual. It isn't being done for pay >either. Instead, an old friend of Pike is missing a 30-some-year-old >daughter; and she quickly turns out to be dead, shot inexplicably while >she was on her morning jog alongside a reservoir in the Hollywood Hills. >The old friend is a self-made millionaire with lots of political >influence on the city council and that results in the LAPD's downtown >Robbery Homicide division being ordered to allow Cole access to their >ongoing investigation -- about as likely an order for the LAPD to comply >with as your finding hen's teeth in a bowl of chicken noodle soup. > >Nevertheless, the LAPD Robbery Homicide division seemingly follows the >orders the politicians, in and out of uniform, have issued it. But for >half the book, they don't seem to be getting anywhere. Instead, while >nothing happens, the first half of the book gives us piecemeal the >backstory on Joe Pike, former LAPD officer, who killed his partner and, >unjustly, according to most of the LAPD, got away with it -- they >obviously hate him. > >Finally, midway through the story, because he realizes R-H is feeding >him doctored reports, Elvis Cole does his 'detecting' schtick and >discovers what Robbery Homicide is really investigating: a series of >five serial killings. Just as that occurs, based upon an FBI profile, >the lead R-H detective decides to pin the last murder on one of the two >guys who discovered the client's daughter's body when they went off a >jogging trail into the bushes near a Hollywood Hills reservoir. > >The lead R-H detective is a politician, not really up to the par >ordinarily encountered in this elite unit established in real life over >sixty years about by Chief Wild Bill Parker and Chief of Detectives Thad >Brown, which doesn't mean his subordinates are on his level; but they're >his subordinates and take his orders. The Deputy Chief in overall charge >seems of the same stripe of politician behind a badge (probably a result >of influence by the "NEA, unions and rampant liberalism"back when >he was in high school). > >The lead detective fixes on his prime suspect because the profile by the >Feebies suggests the killer is the sort who would intrude himself into >the case [by for example 'discovering' a body] and, under interview, the >two guys who found the body when they went into the bushes seem to be >hiding something. > >Here's the first problem I have with the story; and let's discuss it. >Good old politically incorrect I have lived in Los Angeles, except for >six years when I was wearing a green suit my rich uncle gave me, since I >was an infant. That's fifty-mumble years. Lemme see here now: two >thirtish guys, both employed in artistic professions, one living in West >Hollywood (known locally to some of the politically incorrect stripe as >"Boy's Town") and one in the old Los Feliz area (adjacent to and aka >Silverlake, also renowned for being an 'artistic' area) inexplicably >duck into the bushes whilst jogging and seem to have something to >'hide.' And it doesn't occur to the pencil-neck in charge, or any of his >subordinates to ask if maybe these two fellows were going somewhere >where no one could see their intended exchange of affection for each >other. I guess political correctness has finally come to the LAPD. >Ramona Ripston of the local ACLU will be delighted. We've found another >mouthful of hen's teeth, folk. > >Elvis, of course, figures it out, not too swiftly or astutely I might >add. Why would an author do that to us? Anyone? Jane? You're a fan of >cosy mysteries. Do they do that in 'cosy ones,' too? > >Why? >
At 8:03 AM, this morning Jane found, on her server, this post had already expired. Let me see if this works for her to restore the question. She said:
"This morning I read a post from David asking about a specific incident in L.A Requiem. Now the server says that post has expired <sigh>. I think I can remember it well enough to answer. David, you were wondering why Elvis immediately guessed why two men would go off road and the police didn't." "In cosies as well as hard boiled it all depends on who the heroes are. If it's a Poirot book, then we have bumbling Japp. If it's a Marsh book, the police are brilliant becasue Alleyn is the hero. In Requiem the police are not only not the lead characters but they are biased against Pike; two strikes against them." "It also took Elvis a while to get to the real reason why the men left the trail; he didn't instantly go, 'aha!'. One of the men was married with children (I know, doesn't mean he wasn't homosexual but it also make that assumption lower on the list of possibilities for overworked cops). In fact, Elvis didn't even really find out himself; he visits Riley's office and as Elvis leaves, Riley's secretary, Holly tells Elvis that Riley and Gene are 'very close friends' and that they fell for each other straight away. Once he has that information it all falls into place." "Jane"-- David M. Silver http://www.heinleinsociety.org http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!" Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29 Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)
From: David M. Silver (agplusone@aol.com)Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-03-02 10:25:01 PST
Jane Davitt as I requoted her post observed:
>"This morning I read a post from David asking about a specific incident >in L.A Requiem. Now the server says that post has expired. It's probable the reason the posts are expriring so fast relates to the number of 'clam' and alt.fan.panshin being made. ;-)
>I >think I can remember it well enough to answer. David, you were wondering >why Elvis immediately guessed why two men would go off road and the >police didn't."Actually, no. I was wondering why I, in contrast to both the police and Elvis Cole, immediately noted the possibility while I read. I really didn't need to know the particularities about some stereotypes inhabiting West Hollywood and the other area, either.
Could it possibly be that the author of a mystery makes it easier for the reader to 'detect' along with or in advance of the protagonist, by tossing out these big clay pigeons to be shot down? Is this always a good tactic? Is it a good tactic here in this story? Why?
>One of the men was married >with children (I know, doesn't mean he wasn't homosexual but it also >make that assumption lower on the list of possibilities for overworked >cops). In fact, Elvis didn't even really find out himself; he visits >Riley's office and as Elvis leaves, Riley's secretary, Holly tells Elvis >that Riley and Gene are 'very close friends' and that they fell for each >other straight away. Once he has that information it all falls into place.Riley's being married explains why they, even in this day and age, have 'something to hide.' Elvis really doesn't figure it out until Holly hands it to him. I found that a little strained, for a "Hollywood detective." Goodness sakes, what would Shell Scott have said? Don't ask!
-- David M. Silver http://www.heinleinsociety.org http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!" --Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, (1907-88) Lt.(jg) USN R'td
From: BPRAL22169 (bpral22169@aol.com)Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-03-02 17:32:18 PST
I read LA Requiem when it came out but haven't been able to find a copy in Santa Rosa -- I may run across a copy in Santa Cruz, though; I'll check tomorrow.
So anyway thanks for the recap of the story, David. It helps.
I did find a copy of Demolition Angel, which I think was Crais' next book after LA Requiem, and this books seems a lot more tightly written than LA Requiem. It's in an established genre but not using the suspense genre formulas so far (I'm about 1/4 of the way into it). Crais may simply have decided he doesn't need the formula crutch any more.
You mentioned that West Hollywood is known locally as a gay area; both Los Feliz and Silverlake have recently taken on that coloration, too -- Los Feliz in particular was recently the recipient of a gay "gentrification" trend. And let's not mention Atwood Village, shall we? I thought not.
Bill
From: David Silver (ag.plusone@verizon.net)Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-03-02 18:41:52 PST
BPRAL22169 wrote:
> > So anyway thanks for the recap of the story, David. It helps. > [snip] > > You mentioned that West Hollywood is known locally as a gay area; both Los > Feliz and Silverlake have recently taken on that coloration, too -- Los Feliz > in particular was recently the recipient of a gay "gentrification" trend. And > let's not mention Atwood Village, shall we? I thought not.Why not? Atwater Village, not Atwood. "Atwater" refers to the Los Angeles River that runs along Riverside Drive on its southern side. I used to live in Atwater, and my home masonic blue lodge is still there. The entire Los Feliz, Atwater Village, and Silverlake districts are contiguous to the Eastern side of Hollywood, the Hollywood hills, and south of the City of Glendale. I grew up in that area. Further east and south lies "Frogtown," also known as Toonerville, (alongside the river and railroad tracks), Dodger Stadium aka Chavez Ravine, Echo Park, and downtown Los Angeles.
-- David M. Silver http://www.heinleinsociety.org http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!" Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29 Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)
From: BPRAL22169 (bpral22169@aol.com)Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-03-02 21:03:34 PST
You're absolutely right -- Atwater Village it is. I mentioned it because it is the northernmost -- I think I have the direction right -- boundary of the gentrification that ran out of steam a few years ago.
Bill
From: David Silver (ag.plusone@verizon.net)Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-03-07 17:35:28 PST
David Silver wrote:
Simple reminder. Chat is tonight, starting in about thirty minutes. See below: >Robert Heinlein Reading Group chat > >Theme: Another Robert's Mysteries (in preparation for author Robert >Crais' guest visit on Thursday, March 21) > >Dates and times: Thursday, March 7, 2002, 9 PM to midnight, EST and >Saturday, March 9, 2002, 5 PM to 8 PM, EST. > >Chat Host: Agplusone > >Place: AIM chatroom "Heinlein Readers Group chat" > [snip] >To attend our chats, and any reasonable person is welcome, you may >receive instructions on how to download and use AIM freeware on the >website located at > >http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html > >Email me ( ag.plusone@verizon.net or agplusone@aol.com ), or Dave >Wright, Sr, ( dwrighsr@alltel.net ) if you require further help getting >the freeware or getting into the room. > -- David M. Silver http://www.heinleinsociety.org http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!" Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29 Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)Go To Postings
Here Begins The Discussion Log
You have just entered room "Heinlein Readers Group chat."
mkeith54 has entered the room.
TreetopAngelRN has entered the room.
TreetopAngelRN has left the room.
DavidWrightSr: Hi Keith
DavidWrightSr: Hi Mike I mean
mkeith54: HI David, sorry was out of the room
DavidWrightSr: S'ok. I always arrive early to make sure I get a full log
mkeith54: As soon as the invite came through I log on that way I don't forget, I'l just have to follow along tonight, didn't get a chance to buy the book yet.
DavidWrightSr: I've only read one and it's not the one they
DavidWrightSr: have been discussing
mkeith54: well we can both sit back and watch
DavidWrightSr: Right on.
TreetopAngelRN has entered the room.
mkeith54: hello nurse, just had to say it 8-)
ddavitt has entered the room.
OscagneTX has entered the room.
ddavitt: Hi everyone
OscagneTX: howdy
mkeith54: Hi
ddavitt: Looks like the usual gang are on their way; I see them on AIM
DavidWrightSr: Greetings everyone. Sorry about that announcement. I forgot that tonight was just the preview
ddavitt: You got me all confused for a minute:-)
OscagneTX: 's ok. It reminded me there WAS one tonight.
ddavitt: I was frantically paging thru the books
ddavitt: trying to get some intelligent questions ready
ddavitt: Now I have two more weeks to get intelligent:-)
TreetopAngelRN: Hi Everyone!
ddavitt: Oscagne, if SAcademy joins in, can you make your type bold so she can read it?
DavidWrightSr: I've only been able to find one book so far. 'Free Fall'
mkeith54: I didn't figure it'd take you that long, not from your posts
TreetopAngelRN: Hey Mike you watching the Animaniacs?
ddavitt: Hi TreetopAngel
AGplusone has entered the room.
mkeith54: not right now, just wondering if you'd get it
AGplusone: ah, hah .... made it
ddavitt: I have read them all and have 6 here in front of me
ddavitt: Hi AG
AGplusone: Hi, Jane, everyone!
TreetopAngelRN: It's my license plate!
TreetopAngelRN: Hi Jane!
mkeith54: ok
ddavitt: Free Fall is a good one
BRSTAHL has entered the room.
DavidWrightSr: I enjoyed it.
ddavitt: Hi Bryan
DavidWrightSr: Didn't spot any Heinlein references
AGplusone: Good to see you, Bryan
ddavitt: Oh, there must be one somewhere...
BRSTAHL: Hello, thought I'd see what's going on.
ddavitt: Apart from the usual address
AGplusone: Anyone not enjoy Crais?
ddavitt: We're looking at Robert Crais books Bryan; he is GoH next chat
mkeith54: Actually I can't recall reading him and the nearest book store is 60 miles and I haven't made it yet this month
ddavitt: Library?
mkeith54: 20 miles and my library has more books
ddavitt: :-(
AGplusone: If not, . . . then perhaps we'll give Mike a reason to ride 60 miles in the next two weeks.
Heinleinsmof has entered the room.
ddavitt: Hi Bill
AGplusone: g'evening Bill
Heinleinsmof: Yo
mkeith54: going Saturday, if the weather co-operates
ddavitt: That is so far away...open one nearer; you'll make a fortune <g>
TreetopAngelRN: My dream job...my own bookstore!
ddavitt: Mine too:-)
AGplusone: How should we start this tonight. How about this? Why read a detective mystery writer? What does that do to illuminate Heinlein's science fiction writings?
ddavitt: I even have a name planned; Looking Bookwards
mkeith54: I would except I'm not sure many people out here read anymore TV has teir minds
ddavitt: maiden name was Ward, see:-):-)
mkeith54: oops Their
ddavitt: Worse than Puppet masters
TreetopAngelRN: Cool, mine is Bonfire Books...out of respect for Bradbury.
mkeith54: Ding ding ding
ddavitt: cool.
ddavitt: Or hot...
mkeith54: 451
ddavitt: Bill, before we start, has the Journal gone out yet?
TreetopAngelRN: 8-) it would be cool if I could get 451 as the street addy
ddavitt: Or in the phone number
Heinleinsmof: Yes, it went out last week. People are notifying me that it's arrived.
ddavitt: Oh.
ddavitt: Tim hasn't had his yet
Heinleinsmof: Jane's in the Tronna area, so hers would have to be 415.
TreetopAngelRN: Speaking of which, I expect to be ordering the whole set of the Journals when I get my tax refund!
Heinleinsmof: Strange --he's i Mission Viejo, isn't he? He should have gotten his already.
ddavitt: No; 519 actually
Heinleinsmof: I had some full sets printed up, so I'll be able to send them out more expeditiously.
Heinleinsmof: I see -- you're an outlying area, then.
ddavitt: Well, he hadn't had it yesterday
ddavitt: Yep.
Heinleinsmof: And I just realized Tronna is 416 anyway -- never mind.
mkeith54: how much
BRSTAHL: I'll have to check out ordering a set, if they don't give me any more unplanned trips.
ddavitt: Did I get one this time? As I'm not exactly in it
TreetopAngelRN: My tax refund or the set? :-D
ddavitt: If not, I'll order one too.
Heinleinsmof: I was shocked when Panshin wrote saying how good it was.
mkeith54: the set
TreetopAngelRN: I think it was decided it would be $85.00
ddavitt: Heh..I cancel my order then <g>
Heinleinsmof: Yes, Jane -- you're in it. You're a co-author. I think your name is even first.
ddavitt: Nifty.
Heinleinsmof: The $85 includes a subscription for the next three issues as well as all the first 10
ddavitt: I have an anti AP thread but his name isn't in the title so I think he's missed it
LadyS122 has entered the room.
LadyS122: hi
ddavitt: Mr Kiku one
mkeith54: ok, whenever payday rools around I'll order
AGplusone: G'evenin' lady
ddavitt: Hi there
Heinleinsmof: Oh, goody -- but he's peeking into other threads now. What's your thread?
ddavitt: Mr kiku's Age
Heinleinsmof: I read some of that earlier -- I checked the posts before signing on here.
ddavitt: AP didn't get he was old till the end
TreetopAngelRN: AP hasn't found it, yet. It is getting interesting.
ddavitt: Shows how well he read it
Heinleinsmof: There's a lot of that in HID
ddavitt: And says it's a fatal flaw cos it confuses the reader<cough>AP
mkeith54: Does AP get any of it?
ddavitt: I do agree with some of what he says but then bit that that come along and I go "huh?"
ddavitt: like that
Heinleinsmof: There's a lot of that, too.
SageMerlin has entered the room.
OscagneTX: How did you like that smarmy shot at the ng in a recent post of his?
AGplusone: Evenin' alan
ddavitt: Small drying up pool?
LadyS122: I never did get to read the books.. shame on me.. the only copies not checked out were at a branch too far away and I wouldn't have been able to get them til tomorrow at the earliest, so I decided to wait til I had more reading time.
ddavitt: Hi Alan.
TreetopAngelRN: When I read SB everyone over the age of 20 was old, so Mr. Kiku's age wasn't that big a surprise!
LadyS122: but thought I would lurk tonight anyway..
ddavitt: True!
SageMerlin: boy do I hate aol 7.0
AGplusone: maybe in the next two weeks before his visit, Lady.
Heinleinsmof: I haven't figured out quite what "pool" he meant -- sf readers?
ddavitt: Just us adoring acolytes in afh I think
Heinleinsmof: Actually I've found 7.0 more stable than 6.0
AGplusone: Let me know when we're done with alt.fan.panshin, and I'll get started . . .
ddavitt: Cos we're the only H fans left of course <sarcasm>
SageMerlin: I took me 15 minutes to get logged in
Heinleinsmof: ARE there any Heinlein sycophants in afh?
Heinleinsmof: "Idolators." That's the word he used.
ddavitt: Takes one to know one
LadyS122: we'll see..would be nice. :-) I like the occasional mystery.. haven't read any since I went through the libraries LoveJoys (I guess I like Cosies)
ddavitt: Jnathan gash? Couldn't get into them...
LadyS122: I loved the show.. the books weren't as good.
ddavitt: You go AG
mkeith54: I think psychophant describes me better
AGplusone: Is it a mystery why we'd read a mystery in a Heinlein chat group, then, Lady.
LadyS122: (shame on me)
Heinleinsmof: I'm holding out for just plain psycho.
AGplusone: What if anything would a mystery writer have to show us?
SageMerlin: you got it
OscagneTX: psychophant? A mentally ill pachyderm?
AGplusone: Even one who says he rereads his favorite Heinleins every year ...
mkeith54: :-(
SageMerlin: How about how to get away with ripping off Robert Parker plots and getting away with it.
Heinleinsmof: Well - it certainly shows how he's spreading around the other bodies of genre literature.
LadyS122: I think it is fine.. I think the best books I have read (including the cheap harlequins) were better with a mystery for a plot
ddavitt: He does like that elephant allegory
SageMerlin: over and over agian
SageMerlin: On a certain level, all novels are mystery novels.
LadyS122: so I have noticed.
Heinleinsmof: I've only read his last three books -- no two alike.
ddavitt: How's that Alan?
SageMerlin: Hamlet: did the king really do it.
ddavitt: Where is the mystery in a cowboy say?
SageMerlin: MacBeth: is MacBeth Really going to do it.
ddavitt: Could have phrased that better...
SageMerlin: To kill a mockingbird???
AGplusone: who are 'dem masked guys?
ddavitt: But they ARE murder mysteries
BRSTAHL: Who really shot the sheriff?
SageMerlin: People die.
Heinleinsmof: You might have to broaden the classification out to include "suspense" as well as mystery.
OscagneTX: mystery in a cowboy book... How is the white-hat going to kill the black-hat?
SageMerlin: How many novels have you read where no one dies?
ddavitt: About to type lots and then stopped to think
ddavitt: Hmm...
ddavitt: Some definitely
SageMerlin: I use the term mystery here to describe the process through which the protagonist discovers something, learns something.
Heinleinsmof: I defy you to find a death in any Howells novel or James, either. It Just Isn't Done, you know.
TreetopAngelRN: Harlequin Romances:-[
DavidWrightSr: Gaudy Night by Dorothy Sayers. No one died during the novel, but a death had a part in setting it up
LadyS122: Harlequins have death
ddavitt: Georgette Heyer
SageMerlin: No but people die of boredom reading James
ddavitt: Deaths in some but not all
Heinleinsmof: Good point.
TreetopAngelRN: not the ones I read a long time ago
SageMerlin: So that amounts to the same thing
ddavitt: Though she did write a dozen murder stories too
Heinleinsmof: Your logic is impeccable.
Heinleinsmof: I can't remember -- did anyone die in Murder Must Advertise?
LadyS122: Of course.. the ones a long time ago (mid 80s) didn't uaully have a lot of sex either, unless it was about a couple who was previously married getting back together. :-)
AGplusone: Funny how someone like James translates so nicely when BBC does it, but drive you mad when you read it ....
ddavitt: initial murder
ddavitt: On the stairs
SageMerlin: Because the descriptions turn into camera angles.
TreetopAngelRN: I am talking about the early 80's.
mkeith54: how about the Hardy Boys? Had to reach way back for that
ddavitt: Not sure about book itself
Heinleinsmof: Oh, the BBC Golden Bowl nearly drove me mad.
ddavitt: Does it have to be a violent death?
SageMerlin: Hell, wait a minute
Heinleinsmof: Right -- I forgot -- that's how Whimsey gets there in the first place.
SageMerlin: You don't have to have a death to have a mystery
mkeith54: I think to the one who dies all deaths are violent
AGplusone: Heinlein said he wrote 'speculative fiction' because it enabled him a certain detachment of setting that he could use to say things about here and now .... does mystery detective genre do the same thing?
ddavitt: I have read murder mysteries with no deaths.
SageMerlin: I