From: "Oscagne" <Oscagne@ev1.net>

Subject: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" -- Sept. 18, 20

Date: Monday, August 25, 2003 3:51 PM

The next RAH-AIM Readers Group chat will be "Heinlein's Heroines", scheduled for Sept. 18 and 20, 8pm and 5pm U.S. Central Time (respectively). Anyone wishing to join us for the first time can find out how by visiting http://heinleinsociety.org/Archives/ReadersGrp/index.html#Info . Eric Flint (Author of _1632_ and _Mother of Demons_) will be joining us as a participant. Please everyone, go out and buy all his books. Or at least one. Or visit http://www.baen.com/library/ and download the free ones and find out how to download the non-free ones.

Anyhow, to get on with it:

A while back David Silver made a thumbnail suggestion about the circular character of the evolution of Heilein's Heroines. He came up with this chronology:

Maureen (Puddin') - Puddin' stories (Poor Daddy, etc.)

Holly - Menace From Earth

Ricki - Door Into Summer

Podkayne - Podkayne of Mars

Llita - Time Enough for Love

Dora - Time Enough for Love

Laz/Lor - Time Enough for Love

Maureen - Time Enough for Love

David was just goofing around, playing off the topic of the Da Capo thread about the way Heinlein would frequently resolve things the same way he started them off (fitting in nicely with the Auroboros concept). [Note to self: compose a Readers Group topic about Heinlein's propensity to toy around with circular concepts of causality; e.g. Bootstraps, Zombies, Auroboros, etc.]

This does bring us around to a widely circulated criticism of Heilein's work: the Heinlein female, the idea being that RAH only wrote one female and placed her in all the different plots he wrote. This is a very similar concept to the Heinlein three-cornered protagonist we've seen bandied about. Yet, do they have a point? Is there a pattern to the characterization Heinlein gives his favorably depicted females?

To bring this around the wheel, we have to add many more names to the list. First, stealing shamelessly from Geo Rule ( http://www.robertaheinlein.com/articles/strongwomen.htm), are Dr. Mary Martin (Let There be Light), Amanda Jennings (Magic, Inc.), Sister Maggie Andrews (If This Goes On), and Grace Cormet (-We Also Walk Dogs). None of these ladies seem to fit into the originally proposed continuum. Lets make it more complicated by stealing once again, this time from Deb Rule ( http://www.robertaheinlein.com/articles/womeninjuveniles.htm): Phyllis Marlow (Red Planet), Molly and Peggy Kenyon (Farmer in the Sky), all the ladies of the Stone Family (Rolling Stones), oh Hell... there's just too many, and I've left out many of the Rules' examples. Maybe we could hear some additions from the peanut gallery.

Even now we haven't really mentioned any later-written ladies. Hilda and Deety (Number of the Beast). Gwen Novak (The Cat Who Walks Through Walls), an almost-but-not-quite a different character than her earlier incarnation in Stones. Wyoming Knott (The Moon is a Harsh Mistress).

There does not appear to be a chronological continuum to Heilein's Heroic ladies. So how about listing them in order of apparent age? I'll go from the age when we see them at their youngest (and estimate my butt off in several cases): - Dora - Laz/Lor - Ricky - Peggy Kenyon - Phyllis Marlow - Poddy - Maureen - Holly - Puddin - Meade Stone - Wyoh - Deety Carter - Sister Maggie - Grace Cormet - Molly Kenyon - Dr. Martin - Edith Stone - Hilda Burroughs - Hazel Stone - Amanda Jennings -- is there a pattern here? If you don't see your favorite here, add her in and we'll see if we can work out that pattern. Could you take any of these ladies, adjust her age, drop her into any other lady's plot and setting, and see the same outcome?

Or perhaps we should only look at the female protagonists, rather than supporting cast?

Anyway, there _feels_ like there's a pattern here, but that's not data. So _where's_ the pattern? Or perhaps there's more than one pattern?

From: Stephanie <merfilly27@aol.comspamkill>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" -- Sept. 18, 20

Date: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 12:14 AM

I keep trying to phrase a reply, and I keep hanging up...maybe I'll do better in spontaneous chat.

I do Know I have been reading the late novels here lately. After a foray into the early novels.

Comparison: He tried much harder to get inside the ladies' minds as he progressed. Perhaps a direct reflection of having an active woman contributor (i.e. Ginny). Early on, the women, when there are any, seem flat. The later ones put Diana of Themiscarae to shame at times.

A common complaint by the feminazis is that the women of late RAH works are superheroic...yet fall prey to love and nurture needs. They fall for a guy and they have babies. Same complaint is made of one of my favorite pop writers, and I tell such critics to go take a flight. I wish I could do half what Maureen can...and still I would not give up my children.

That's my two cents, early on...I now appoint a new Stimulator, or at least a Respondent!

Stephanie

http://hometown.aol.com/merfilly27/myhomepage/profile.html

From: "DocJam00" <docjam00@aol.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" -- Sept. 18, 20

Date: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 9:46 AM

>Perhaps a direct reflection of having an active woman contributor
>(i.e. Ginny).  Early on, the women, when there are any, seem flat.  

I think a more likely explanation for why the early women come off "flat" as you say is that the market at the time did not allow women/romance/sex as fully rounded subjects. The original version of "Let There Be Light" was rejected on precisely these grounds by Campbell -- although Pohl snapped it up when it was offered to him.

So, as much as anything, this is a reflection of market constraints. The female lead in FUTL, once you've read that book this fall, should add more to this conversation.

Thanks for the great post, Stephanie!

Robert James

From: "jeanette" <wolfj@webtv.net>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" --Se...

Date: Friday, September 05, 2003 11:50 AM

I just reread Moon Is a Harsh Mistress and have some comments. The women in the book are portrayed as extremely competent as far as they are portrayed. Not a yammerhead among them. Of course they do not say much. "Lenore is a sensible fem and knows when to keep quiet." Wyoh is the only one who is involved in other than women's matters. Even Michelle is only used for girl talk and bawdy jokes. Women are elected to positions when the government starts to form, but I don't remember any of them (other than Wyoh) actually saying anything.

It seems to me that they are in a hothouse. Job is to smell pretty and look inviting. Carefully protected--it is not their fault if someone can't resist touching. The only female-run business I can remember is the beauty shop. No other women shopkeepers, gamblers or judges (or juries) mentioned. Warden's staff and security all men. Only mention of women is comfort corp. When the fighting starts, the women are very involved--fight and die. But, until then, mostly untrained and only allowed around to boost morale (ironically named Lysistrata Corps).

In family matters--it is OK for women not to marry. We kind of get the idea how she can support herself without being tied down to a family. But in Mannie's family, it seems important that marriages of both women and men happen early. Men work the farm. Women have the babies. Mannie, when promoting the advantages of a line marriage only mentions child rearing and conservation of property. He does not mention aspects of support and love, but we know that they are important to him. One thing that troubled me was the question of allowing an infertile woman to join the marriage. Would it be allowed? It was not answered in the book. Was having children a requirement for women to be in the family? Could they contribute in other ways? Mannie didn't farm much.

This is only one book--doesn't show RAH over time. Women are not all the same women, they just aren't very much of the story.

Group seems very quiet lately.

Jeanette

From: "Christopher A. Bohn" <bohn@xi.cis.ohio-state.edu>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" -- Se...

Date: Friday, September 05, 2003 12:41 PM

Good afternoon,

On Fri, 5 Sep 2003, jeanette wrote:

[snip most of the discussion of the sparse treatement of women in TMIAHM]
> But in Mannie's family, it seems important that marriages of both women
> and men happen early.  Men work the farm.  Women have the babies.
> Mannie, when promoting the advantages of a line marriage only mentions
> child rearing and conservation of property.  He does not mention aspects
> of support and love, but we know that they are important to him.  One

> thing that troubled me was the question of allowing an infertile woman
> to join the marriage.  Would it be allowed?  It was not answered in the
> book.  Was having children a requirement for women to be in the family?
> Could they contribute in other ways?  Mannie didn't farm much.
[...]

Take care,

cb

-- 
Christopher A. Bohn                        ____________|____________
http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~bohn/        ' ** ** " (o) " ** ** '
    "Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum."
                          - Favius Vegetius Renatus, De Rei Militari

From: "lal_truckee" <lal_truckee@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" -- Se...

Date: Friday, September 05, 2003 1:14 PM

Christopher A. Bohn wrote:

> Taking the question a bit
> further -- if infertile women couldn't enter the marriage, could infertile
> men & women be forced out?  

BTW, did new husbands sleep with the oldest wife (Grandma) on first night? I assume so from symmetry, but it wasn't stated.

I think the spouse generations issue is an interesting question, doubly so, since a line marriage would have children who are g'g'parental age relative to official "parents."

From: "Stephanie" <merfilly27@aol.comspamkill>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" --

Date: Friday, September 05, 2003 1:51 PM

>From: wolfj@webtv.net  (jeanette)

>I just reread Moon Is a Harsh Mistress and have some comments. 

Stephanie

http://hometown.aol.com/merfilly27/myhomepage/profile.html

From: "LV Poker Player" <lvpokerplayer@aol.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" --

Date: Friday, September 05, 2003 2:29 PM

Ack! You aren't supposed to ask these questions!

Ok, seiously, you ARE supposed to ask them. On a really good day (dark semi lunar, or at least a sunspot minimum) we might even take a shot at answering them.

Jack Daniels warning at this point. Trust me, the backspace key has been used multiple times already. :)

I'm trying to cut back. Really I am. I looked at the calories that stuff has, and my waistline, and I figured something has to give. Still, at this point I am dead drunk. At least it is not happening as often. :)

Oh yeah, TMIAHM, women, strong characters, frontier society, Wyoming, Lunar Revolutions, mid sixties, typos, drunkenness, and all that. That was the topic, right? :)

Heinlein stated often that he wrote for money. Most authors at the time would have put women in the background, or not mentioned them at all. Heinlein put in some strong women characters (maybe not QUITE as strong as the men, but close) in his novel.

Wyoh was part of the war cabinet, not just the cabinet. Your objections seem to be along the lines of "Well, jeez Mrs. Kennedy, we are sure sorry about the shooting, but except for that, did you enjoy the ride?"

We have Mimi telling Manniie that she can stop any Earthworm troops from getting through the Davis tunnels.

I wonder what I will think when I read this cold sober?

Oh yeah, I just may have set a new world's record for use of the backspace key. I hope not too many typos slipped through.

Also, this really is meant as a serious reply, not as a slam or personal attack.

-- 
Ferengi rule of acquisition #192:  Never cheat a Klingon...unless you're sure
you can get away with it.

From: bookman <thebookman@kc.rr.comNULL>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" --

Date: Saturday, September 06, 2003 1:38 AM

"LV Poker Player" <lvpokerplayer@aol.com> wrote in message news:20030905142915.19971.00000674@mb-m28.aol.com...

> Ack!  You aren't supposed to ask these questions!
>
> Ok, seiously, you ARE supposed to ask them.  On a really good day (dark semi
> lunar, or at least a sunspot minimum) we might even take a shot at answering
> them.
>
> Jack Daniels warning at this point.  Trust me, the backspace key has been used
> multiple times already.  :)
>
> I'm trying to cut back.  Really I am.  I looked at the calories that stuff has,
> and my waistline, and I figured something has to give.   Still, at this point I
> am dead drunk.  At least it is not happening as often.  :)

It is not the occasional splurge that is killing you weight-wise, it's the regular nightly shot (Or 2, or 3) that is packing them on.

JMO

For me, it is the beer. ;-)

(I'm walking on my breaks at work now, we shall see.)

Regards,

Rusty the bookman

From: bookman <thebookman@kc.rr.comNULL>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" --Se...

Date: Saturday, September 06, 2003 1:51 AM

"jeanette" <wolfj@webtv.net> wrote in message news:25670-3F58B0E1-10@storefull-2117.public.lawson.webtv.net...

<Snip>

> In family matters--it is OK for women not to marry.  We kind of get the
> idea how she can support herself without being tied down to a family.
> But in Mannie's family, it seems important that marriages of both women
> and men happen early.  Men work the farm.  Women have the babies.

As I recall it, Mannie said that everybody worked the farm, and just a couple of the men did the really dangerous stuff. As a matter of fact, Mannie was unusual in that he did contract work on computers, but didn't a couple of women have a beauty parlor? Yeah, ISTR that they did, and that they shipped the used water back to the farm rather than giving it to the Warden for free.

I will not disagree that the culture is rather heavily gender-based in terms of roles, but given the scarcity of women and the impact that fact had on Lunar society I find that notion to be plausible. Other notions might also be plausible, too, but they weren't the one that RAH used.

Regards,

Rusty the bookman

From: Christopher A. Bohn <bohn@xi.cis.ohio-state.edu>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" --Se...

Date: Saturday, September 06, 2003 9:18 AM

Good morning,

On Sat, 6 Sep 2003, bookman wrote: [about the role of each sex on the O'Kelly farm] [...]

>
> I will not disagree that the culture is rather heavily
> gender-based in terms of roles, but given the scarcity
> of women and the impact that fact had on Lunar society
> I find that notion to be plausible.  Other notions might
> also be plausible, too, but they weren't the one that RAH
> used.

A

t the risk of sounding like a Saudi, think of it as less of a cheapening the value of women to raising their value to the extent they need to be protected.

T

ake care,

cb

-- 
Christopher A. Bohn                        ____________|____________
http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~bohn/        ' ** ** " (o) " ** ** '
    "Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum"
                          - Appius Claudius (the Blind), Roman Senate

From: jeanette <wolfj@webtv.net>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" --

Date: Saturday, September 06, 2003 12:03 PM

Maureen in TO SAIL was the wife who was dumped because she was no longer able to have children. In MOON, if all went in the order of things, the wives (and husbands) could look forward to maturing into the senior spouse position. They might eventually retire and in due time fertilize the family flower garden. The question I had was would a women known to be unable to have children be invited to be a wife in the first place? The inner discussion made it sound like a deal breaker.

It is stated in the book that the men take care of the farm. I don't think the it meant the women couldn't, I just think that was the way it was. They were glad to add the new husbands because they had just married off a couple of the boys.

I think what bothers me is that RAH flaunts the conventions of the time the book was written by saying that it is OK for women not to marry and have a family, but seems to say that prostitution (there is probably a higher-class sounding word, but it will mean the same thing) is the good alternative. Mention of the queen of a group of stilyagi and the Lysastrata Corps. No mention of other careers for women.

Back to Maureen. What is with the Howard Foundation? They give money as an incentive to have children. It is enough to keep Maureen and Brian interested, but not enough that Brian can stop travelling? Should be enough to afford to raise the kids with both parents at home. When will they wise up and realize that it is not a good economic move?

Jeanette

From: Christopher A. Bohn <bohn@xi.cis.ohio-state.edu>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" --

Date: Saturday, September 06, 2003 1:01 PM

Good afternoon,

On Sat, 6 Sep 2003, jeanette wrote:

[...]
> Back to Maureen.  What is with the Howard Foundation?  They give money
> as an incentive to have children.  It is enough to keep Maureen and
> Brian interested, but not enough that Brian can stop travelling?  Should
> be enough to afford to raise the kids with both parents at home.  When
> will they wise up and realize that it is not a good economic move?

Of course, maybe his "business trips" weren't entirely for business...

Take care,

cb

-- 
Christopher A. Bohn                        ____________|____________
http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~bohn/        ' ** ** " (o) " ** ** '
    "Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum"
                          - Appius Claudius (the Blind), Roman Senate

From: Bryan R. Stahl <brstahl@sprynet.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" --

Date: Saturday, September 06, 2003 1:07 PM

"jeanette" <wolfj@webtv.net> wrote in message news:27079-3F5A056C-49@storefull-2112.public.lawson.webtv.net... < SNIP >

> Back to Maureen.  What is with the Howard Foundation?  They give money
> as an incentive to have children.  It is enough to keep Maureen and
> Brian interested, but not enough that Brian can stop travelling?  Should
> be enough to afford to raise the kids with both parents at home.  When
> will they wise up and realize that it is not a good economic move?

Earlier, however, it was brought up that the payments were how they paid for their house, enabling them to live in a better neighborhood than Brian's income would otherwise have provided.

Brian's traveling came from his career choice; if he had chosen, say law or medicine, he probably would have been home most of the time. His job required him to travel to mining sites, and later, he was gone for military training and service in WWI.

Finally, Maureen also implied that they just had the drive to get rich; she did mention that they raised their children to have that drive.

-- 
Bryan
"This Universe never did make sense; I suspect
that it was built on government contract." -- Heinlein

From: Stephanie <merfilly27@aol.comspamkill>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" --

Date: Saturday, September 06, 2003 1:10 PM

>From: wolfj@webtv.net  (jeanette)

>In MOON, if all went in the order of things, the
>wives (and husbands) could look forward to maturing into the senior
>spouse position.  They might eventually retire and in due time fertilize
>the family flower garden.  The question I had was would a women known to
>be unable to have children be invited to be a wife in the first place?

Also, even IWFNE still has the women in menial, secretarial/wait jobs. SIASL and Job, again, do not show women in power careers. I could go on, but I think, except with the experiment of Friday, women are not power career people in RAH's work. Granted, Hazel and her daughter in law were a lawyer and a doctor...off camera, mostly. Then you have Hilda, who winds up heading a good portion of the Time Corps. Deety is a software programmer, but pardon me, I can see this as an evolution of earlier secretary roles. Ishtar is one of the few power career women from the beginning, but again, in the medical field as Doctor Stone was. Any more points to the contrary? I'm not overly conversant with the juvies, so I may be overlooking prime examples to the contrary.

>Back to Maureen.  What is with the Howard Foundation?  They give money
>as an incentive to have children.  It is enough to keep Maureen and
>Brian interested, but not enough that Brian can stop travelling?  Should
>be enough to afford to raise the kids with both parents at home.  When
>will they wise up and realize that it is not a good economic move?

Stephanie

http://hometown.aol.com/merfilly27/myhomepage/profile.html

From: Simon Jester UK <simonjester@byespam.freeuk.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" --

Date: Sunday, September 07, 2003 6:53 AM

Stephanie wrote:

...
> Also, even IWFNE still has the women in menial, secretarial/wait jobs.

> SIASL
> and Job, again, do not show women in power careers.  I could go on, but I
> think, except with the experiment of Friday, women are not power career people
> in RAH's work.  Granted, Hazel and her daughter in law were a lawyer and a
> doctor...off camera, mostly.  Then you have Hilda, who winds up heading a good
> portion of the Time Corps.  Deety is a software programmer, but pardon me, I
> can see this as an evolution of earlier secretary roles.

> Ishtar is one of the
> few power career women from the beginning, but again, in the medical field as
> Doctor Stone was.  Any more points to the contrary?  I'm not overly conversant
> with the juvies, so I may be overlooking prime examples to the contrary.
...

The Motherthing, from HSSWT? (Possibly this is cheating... :) )

The pilots in ST?

Mrs. Grew, in PoM? (Evil, but running things.)

Poddy's mother, in PoM, is a senior engineer. She is off camera, most of the time, though.

Mrs. Keithly, in "Gulf"? Another villain, and mostly off-camera.

From: Simon Jester UK <simonjester@byespam.freeuk.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" --Se...

Date: Sunday, September 07, 2003 7:09 AM

jeanette wrote:

> I just reread Moon Is a Harsh Mistress and have some comments.  The
> women in the book are portrayed as extremely competent as far as they
> are portrayed.  Not a yammerhead among them.

> Of course they do not say
> much.  "Lenore is a sensible fem and knows when to keep quiet."  Wyoh is
> the only one who is involved in other than women's matters.  Even
> Michelle is only used for girl talk and bawdy jokes.  Women are elected
> to positions when the government starts to form, but I don't remember
> any of them (other than Wyoh) actually saying anything.

> It seems to me that they are in a hothouse.  Job is to smell pretty and
> look inviting.  Carefully protected--it is not their fault if someone
> can't resist touching.  The only female-run business I can remember is
> the beauty shop.  No other women shopkeepers, gamblers or judges (or
> juries) mentioned.  Warden's staff and security all men.  Only mention
> of women is comfort corp.  When the fighting starts, the women are very
> involved--fight and die.  But, until then, mostly untrained and only
> allowed around to boost morale (ironically named Lysistrata Corps).

> In family matters--it is OK for women not to marry.  We kind of get the
> idea how she can support herself without being tied down to a family.
> But in Mannie's family, it seems important that marriages of both women
> and men happen early.  Men work the farm.  Women have the babies.
...

From: David M. Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" --Se...

Date: Sunday, September 07, 2003 12:14 PM

In article <1062935649.62580.1@despina.uk.clara.net>, "Simon Jester UK" <simonjester@byespam.freeuk.com> wrote:

> jeanette wrote:
> > I just reread Moon Is a Harsh Mistress and have some comments.  The
> > women in the book are portrayed as extremely competent as far as they
> > are portrayed.  Not a yammerhead among them.
> 
[snip]

Michael Holmes also has a "Mychelle" persona. But since the POV character is Mannie, we don't see much of her.

 
> 
> Outside of the War Cabinet, I don't remember any of the politicians saying
> anything (except the yammerhead mentioned above).
> 
> > It seems to me that they are in a hothouse.  Job is to smell pretty and
> > look inviting.  Carefully protected--it is not their fault if someone
> > can't resist touching.  The only female-run business I can remember is
> > the beauty shop.  No other women shopkeepers, gamblers or judges (or
> > juries) mentioned.  Warden's staff and security all men.  Only mention
> > of women is comfort corp.  When the fighting starts, the women are very
> > involved--fight and die.  But, until then, mostly untrained and only
> > allowed around to boost morale (ironically named Lysistrata Corps).
> 

> I got the impression that the absence of women in combat (and other
> dangerous)

Mannie also received reports; but I doubt whether the categories were broken down into KIA (males), KIA (females), WIA (males), WIA (females), MIA (males), and MIA (females). Field subordinates don't have the time for such niceties; at least not until it's quiet and the REMF feather merchants have taken over again.

Hazel, in _Rolling Stones_, wears that sidearm just as proudly as any male veteran of the revolution, perhaps more proudly -- even if she does keep cough drops in the chamber.

> roles was due to the fact that there were relatively few women,
> so there was a particular need to protect them. Might as well give the
> dangerous jobs to the surplus males.
> 
> > In family matters--it is OK for women not to marry.  We kind of get the
> > idea how she can support herself without being tied down to a family.
> > But in Mannie's family, it seems important that marriages of both women
> > and men happen early.  Men work the farm.  Women have the babies.
> ...
> 
> I got the impression that Mimi ran the farm, while the men did the donkey
> work.
> 

Marjorie Baldwin had to buy her way with gelt into the line marriage in _Friday_; and I'd argue Wyoh just as dearly bought her marriage in _Moon_ by agreeing to have the reverse operation that might result in yet another monster birth that would have to be destroyed.

-- 
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

From: Major oz <majoroz@aol.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" --Se...

Date: Sunday, September 07, 2003 6:07 PM

re: Wyoh as a leader and "important" fem character.

Wyoming was the first state to give women the vote, and the first state to elect a woman governor (the TX lady succeeded her hubby -- no election).

.......wonder if RAH made the connection when he chose Whoh's name........?

cheers

oz

From: LV Poker Player <lvpokerplayer@aol.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" --Se...

Date: Sunday, September 07, 2003 7:20 PM

>From: "Simon Jester UK" 

>> In family matters--it is OK for women not to marry.  We kind of get the
>> idea how she can support herself without being tied down to a family.
>> But in Mannie's family, it seems important that marriages of both women
>> and men happen early.  Men work the farm.  Women have the babies.
>...
>
>I got the impression that Mimi ran the farm, while the men did the donkey
>work.

-- 
Ferengi rule of acquisition #192:  Never cheat a Klingon...unless you're sure
you can get away with it.

From: David M. Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net>

Subject: Re: Suggested Reading Order?

Date: Monday, September 08, 2003 2:11 PM

In article <HiM6b.8339$_26.7878@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>, Velvet Elvis <deadboy@graceland.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 22:09:21 -0500, Sean wrote:
> 
> 
> > "Velvet Elvis" <deadboy@graceland.com> wrote in message
> > news:25t6b.3400$BG6.1208@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> 
> <snip>
>  
> > Based on your enjoyment of AP's _Rite of Passage_ I would recommend just
> > about any of the Juveniles. Heinlein had these novels published between
> > 1947 and 1958, and they are adored and reread by many who post here.
> > There are 12 in total (not counting _Starship Troopers_ and _Podkayne of
> > Mars_ which are sometimes bracketed as pseudo Juvies). You have already
> > read one of the Juvies, _Have Space - Will Travel_. My particular
> > favourites from the rest would include: _Citizen of the Galaxy_, _Tunnel
> > in the Sky_, _The Star Beast_, _Starman Jones_, and _Space Cadet_,
> > though opinions will vary and all are worthy of your time. HTH.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> I read A Red Planet last night, and the juviniles seem to be just the
> kind of light reading I was looking for. 

> I've been toying with the idea
> of trying to cash in on the current demand for young adult fantasy
> created by the Harry Potter craze.  Heinlein's young adult fiction looks
> to be an excellent source of instruction and inspiration. Are all his
> juviniles as boy-centric as the few I've read, or does he have any which
> appeal to the psyche of young women as well? Are there any novels other
> than Friday which feature a female protagonist?  
> 
> thanks again,
> 
> VE

So, stymied, Heinlein sent his stories about "Puddin'" (Maureen) to other editors [see, Gifford's RAH:ARC for a listing of the three that were published]. You can trace, I think, his development of the Maureen character through the 'Puddin' stories and on through Holly in "The Menace from Earth," F&SF, August 1957, republished in the collection _The Menace from Earth_ (Baen), into the offshoot, _Podkayne of Mars_ (Putnam, 1963) [I'm one of those who definitely doesn't think Poddy was a juvenile, although it was marketed by the publisher as if it were one]; and finally to fully-realized Maureen Johnson in _To Sail Beyond the Sunset_ (1988).

It's interesting to speculate what Heinlein could have done with juveniles written for girls had he been allowed to try. He wrote in EU in 1980 that he had blocked out sufficient stories in his mind to do a full book of "Puddin'" tales, even the title of the book: _Men Are Experating_; and regretted at the time that "at my age, there are more stories that I want to write (and are certain of publication) than I can possibly write before the black camel kneels at my door." EU, at 355.

He hoped we'd like "Puddin'." I do. Track them down, and try them, along with Holly; and let me know what you think.

-- 
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

From: David M. Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" --Se...

Date: Monday, September 08, 2003 2:50 PM

In article <20030907180741.18106.00000358@mb-m25.aol.com>, majoroz@aol.com (Major oz) wrote:

> re: Wyoh as a leader and "important" fem character.
> 
> Wyoming was the first state to give women the vote, and the first state to
> elect a woman governor (the TX lady succeeded her hubby -- no election).
> 
> .......wonder if RAH made the connection when he chose Whoh's name........?
> 
> cheers
> 
> oz

-- 
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

From: "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" --Se...

Date: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 11:47 PM

David M. Silver wrote:

> In article <20030907180741.18106.00000358@mb-m25.aol.com>,
>  majoroz@aol.com (Major oz) wrote:
> 
> 
>>re: Wyoh as a leader and "important" fem character.
>>
>>Wyoming was the first state to give women the vote, and the first state to
>>elect a woman governor (the TX lady succeeded her hubby -- no election).
>>
>>.......wonder if RAH made the connection when he chose Whoh's name........?
>>
>>cheers
>>
>>oz
> 
> 
> I certainly wouldn't bet against, having found what we've found about 
> RAH and the names of his characters, particularly in Stranger, but 
> elsewhere too -- seems to me that he's deliberately picked names for his 
> characters with resonances from the very beginning. You may have noted 
> from Simon & Schuster's advertisement that his first protagonist is 
> named Perry Nelson in FUTL. Be interesting to work out that resonance. 
> There were two American naval heroes named Perry and Nelson might 
> resonate a bit with our cousins across the pond. But there could be 
> other Perrys and Nelsons as well here.
> 

What do you think?

Rufe

From: "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" --Se...

Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 12:31 AM

In article <u9x7b.5323$PE6.1744@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>, "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote:

> David M. Silver wrote:
> > In article <20030907180741.18106.00000358@mb-m25.aol.com>,
> >  majoroz@aol.com (Major oz) wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >>re: Wyoh as a leader and "important" fem character.
> >>
> >>Wyoming was the first state to give women the vote, and the first state to
> >>elect a woman governor (the TX lady succeeded her hubby -- no election).
> >>
> >>.......wonder if RAH made the connection when he chose Whoh's name........?
> >>
> >>cheers
> >>
> >>oz
> > 
> > 
> > I certainly wouldn't bet against, having found what we've found about 
> > RAH and the names of his characters, particularly in Stranger, but 
> > elsewhere too -- seems to me that he's deliberately picked names for his 
> > characters with resonances from the very beginning. You may have noted 
> > from Simon & Schuster's advertisement that his first protagonist is 
> > named Perry Nelson in FUTL. Be interesting to work out that resonance. 
> > There were two American naval heroes named Perry and Nelson might 
> > resonate a bit with our cousins across the pond. But there could be 
> > other Perrys and Nelsons as well here.
> > 
>   	So, David, it's not a tremendous extrapolation that "Perry Nelson" is 
> probably a member of the (US ??) Navy. 

Trying hard not to tip anything in particular that hasn't already been disclosed: Perry Nelson, the character in FUTL, as the advertising blurb notes although they use the wrong term, is a naval aviator, sometimes spelled "nasal radiator," by those who fly but don't have tailhooks growing out of their, er, tails.

He's the one who finds himself in the "unknown world" of the future after an accident.

In 1938-9, the distinction of opening up "unknown" Japan to the rest of the world has a somewhat uncertain air, of course. Heinlein, I think you'll find from the 1974 Buell letter when it gets published said he had a pretty fair idea of what was coming, what had to be coming; and probably most of the Navy did as well, except maybe Admiral Kimmel on December 6 when he kept most of his fleet in port in Pearl to save on his annual fuel budget, or something.

[snip]
> Another observation: The more "important" the character is to the story 
> the more  "meaning" there is attached to that character's name?
> 

And we've all been through the names in Stranger in a Strange Land, which take up a full chapter in Andy Thornton and Bill Patterson's A Martian Named Smith, etc. David Lamb: give me a break please!

Perhaps Horatio Nelson's heroism has some application to this character (Trafalgar and the Battle of the Nile, and all that): maybe, it sheds light on the reason urged in the publisher's blurb explaining why FUTL wasn't published in 1938-9, and perhaps we ought to look also at Nelson's affair with Lady Hamilton as well for a tip what the author may have been thinking, and why he stuck his character with yet another famous sailor's name.

I always wondered why Maureen's first cousin (the one who slipped the pie under her) had that first name, but never thought very hard about it. Maybe there's no reason in particular? Or maybe there is.

> What do you think?
> Rufe

-- 
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

From: "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com>

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" --Se...

Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 1:39 AM

David M. Silver wrote:

<snip>

>>>You may have noted 
>>>from Simon & Schuster's advertisement that his first protagonist is 
>>>named Perry Nelson in FUTL. Be interesting to work out that resonance. 
>>>There were two American naval heroes named Perry and Nelson might 
>>>resonate a bit with our cousins across the pond. But there could be 
>>>other Perrys and Nelsons as well here.
>>>
>>
>>  	So, David, it's not a tremendous extrapolation that "Perry Nelson" is 
>>probably a member of the (US ??) Navy. 
To quote Tennessee Williams: "Deception! Deception! Deception!"
Counselor, did your fingers "slip" on the keys or are you being 
"deceptive" in attributing the publication of FUTL to "Simon & 
Schuster?" Or are you just trying to take the mickey outta me?
> Perhaps Horatio Nelson's heroism has some application to this character 
> (Trafalgar and the Battle of the Nile, and all that): maybe, it sheds 
> light on the reason urged in the publisher's blurb explaining why FUTL 
> wasn't published in 1938-9, and perhaps we ought to look also at 
> Nelson's affair with Lady Hamilton as well for a tip what the author may 
> have been thinking, and why he stuck his character with yet another 
> famous sailor's name.
> 

OKAY! I confess! I broke down and googled for FUTL (I limited myself to 
Bill Dennis, Deb Rule and a "fellow-traveler's" site.) No more quizzing 
you, David. Naughty naval aviators and their "lady friends" -- indeed! 
Vagaries in sexual mores -- indeed! Illegal to send the novel through 
the (1939) U.S. post -- indeed!  I'm stoked !! (as those old-timers said 
in the 1960s.)
> I always wondered why Maureen's first cousin (the one who slipped the 
> pie under her) had that first name, but never thought very hard about 
> it. Maybe there's no reason in particular? Or maybe there is. 

Nelson, Mo's cousin who slipped the pie under her in church, was, I 
recollect, 14 years old when he and Mo began their on-and-on pairings. 
When did Horatio, Lord Nelson first go to Sea? 14 sounds about right -- 
lemme google a bit . . . Oh, pooh! Robert Southey says in his "The Life 
of Horatio Lord Nelson" that little Horatio was just 13!

Ah, me. . . no more speculation until the reading of the Tale is 
completed -- just past Thanksgiving, no? I shall offer up the tensions 
"for the sins of my past life" as they say.

Pax,
Rufe

From: "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" --Se...
Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 5:54 AM

In article <uOy7b.5453$PE6.4145@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
 "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote:
> 	To quote Tennessee Williams: "Deception! Deception! Deception!"
> 	Counselor, did your fingers "slip" on the keys or are you being 
> "deceptive" in attributing the publication of FUTL to "Simon & 
> Schuster?" Or are you just trying to take the mickey outta me?

Simon & Schuster bought it. They're bringing it out under the Scribner's 
imprint which they now own or control, perhaps for auld lang syne's 
sake, e.g. the juveniles. I don't recall an old Charlie with prehensible 
toes in this one, anyway.
-- 
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88


From: "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" --Se...
Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 6:01 AM

In article <uOy7b.5453$PE6.4145@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
 "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote:
> 	Nelson, Mo's cousin who slipped the pie under her in church, was, I 
> recollect, 14 years old when he and Mo began their on-and-on pairings. 
> When did Horatio, Lord Nelson first go to Sea? 14 sounds about right -- 
> lemme google a bit . . . Oh, pooh! Robert Southey says in his "The Life 
> of Horatio Lord Nelson" that little Horatio was just 13!

Well, Nelson, Mo's cousin wound up being a Marine officer. Everyone 
knows that Marine officers are a leetle slower than their other comrades 
in the Naval Service, ain't that so, Jim and Steve. At least that's what 
I've been told, confidentially, by certain folk, the joke about the 
Marine Lieutenant and the sweet Miss in Paris in 1917 to the contrary. 

"Thank you, Ma'amselle, but Marine officers are not allowed to accept 
gratuities."
-- 
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88


From: "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" --Se...
Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 1:32 PM

David M. Silver wrote:
> In article <uOy7b.5453$PE6.4145@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
>  "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>To quote Tennessee Williams: "Deception! Deception! Deception!"
>>Counselor, did your fingers "slip" on the keys or are you being 
>>"deceptive" in attributing the publication of FUTL to "Simon & 
>>Schuster?" Or are you just trying to take the mickey outta me?
> 
> 
> Simon & Schuster bought it. They're bringing it out under the Scribner's 
> imprint which they now own or control, perhaps for auld lang syne's 
> sake, e.g. the juveniles. I don't recall an old Charlie with prehensible 
> toes in this one, anyway.
> 

Thanks for the explication in re Simon & Schuster v. Scribners'. I am 
not "au courant" with who owns who in publishing.

Pax,
Rufe

From: "Ogden Johnson III" <oj3@cpcug.org>
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" --Se...
Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 7:08 PM

"Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote:
>David M. Silver wrote:

>>  "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote:

>>>To quote Tennessee Williams: "Deception! Deception! Deception!"
>>>Counselor, did your fingers "slip" on the keys or are you being 
>>>"deceptive" in attributing the publication of FUTL to "Simon & 
>>>Schuster?" Or are you just trying to take the mickey outta me?
 
>> Simon & Schuster bought it. They're bringing it out under the Scribner's 
>> imprint which they now own or control, perhaps for auld lang syne's 
>> sake, e.g. the juveniles. I don't recall an old Charlie with prehensible 
>> toes in this one, anyway.
 
>Thanks for the explication in re Simon & Schuster v. Scribners'. I am 
>not "au courant" with who owns who in publishing.

In today's merger-mad world, nobody other than those in the actual
industry and businesses involved [and sometimes not all of *them*],
knows who's who, who's thinking of buying whom, who's going to buy
whom, who has bought whom, who's fighting being bought by whom, who's
seeking to be bought by whom, who's seeking to be bought by anyone,
..., ..., ..., ad infinitum.

OJ III

From: William Hughes <cvproj@texas.net>
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" --Se...
Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 11:15 PM

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:08:08 -0400, in alt.fan.heinlein Ogden Johnson III
<oj3@cpcug.org> wrote:
> In today's merger-mad world, nobody other than those in the actual
> industry and businesses involved [and sometimes not all of *them*],
> knows who's who, who's thinking of buying whom, who's going to buy
> whom, who has bought whom, who's fighting being bought by whom, who's
> seeking to be bought by whom, who's seeking to be bought by anyone,
> ..., ..., ..., ad infinitum.

They've all been bought by the Publishing Conglomerate, just as all the airlines
are actually owned by the Transportation Conglomerate and all the radio and TV
stations are owned by the Communications Conglomerate.

Gotta run; Rollerball starts in thirty minutes - don't want to be late.

RB

From: William Hughes <cvproj@texas.net>
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" --Se...
Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 11:15 PM

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:08:08 -0400, in alt.fan.heinlein Ogden Johnson III
<oj3@cpcug.org> wrote:
> In today's merger-mad world, nobody other than those in the actual
> industry and businesses involved [and sometimes not all of *them*],
> knows who's who, who's thinking of buying whom, who's going to buy
> whom, who has bought whom, who's fighting being bought by whom, who's
> seeking to be bought by whom, who's seeking to be bought by anyone,
> ..., ..., ..., ad infinitum.

They've all been bought by the Publishing Conglomerate, just as all the airlines
are actually owned by the Transportation Conglomerate and all the radio and TV
stations are owned by the Communications Conglomerate.

Gotta run; Rollerball starts in thirty minutes - don't want to be late.

RB

From: Oscagne <Oscagne@ev1.net>
Subject: Reminder:  RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting--"Heinlein's Heroines" -- Sept. 18, 20
Date: Saturday, September 13, 2003 1:39 AM

The next RAH-AIM Readers Group chat will be "Heinlein's Heroines", scheduled
for Sept. 18 and 20, 8pm and 5pm U.S. Central Time (respectively).  Anyone
wishing to join us for the first time can find out how by visiting
http://heinleinsociety.org/Archives/ReadersGrp/index.html#Info .  Eric Flint
(Author of _1632_ and _Mother of Demons_) will be joining us as a
participant.  Please everyone, go out and buy all his books.  Or at least
one.  Or visit http://www.baen.com/library/ and download the free ones and
find out how to download the non-free ones.
--
Oscagne, High Priest of Skeptics and Cynics
wanna read a story?  http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/mss
or see my goofy website?  http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/webpage/home.htm




Return To Beginning of Newsgroup Postings



Here Begins the Discussion Log



You have just entered room "Heinlein Readers Group Chat."
OscagneTX: howdy 
DavidWrightSr: Howdy back to you. 
DavidWrightSr: I'll be afk for a few minutes. my wife has to read her
e-mail. 
OscagneTX: okie dokey 
aggirlj has entered the room. 
OscagneTX: howdy 
aggirlj: hi 
aggirlj: Just lurking right now. Waiting to begin. 
OscagneTX: me too 
aggirlj: Reading TMIAHM, fun. 
OscagneTX: I like it. 
aggirlj: Finally know about Simon Jester now. 
OscagneTX: yay. 
aggirlj: Interesting that RAH maintains the pidgin for Manuel so well. He
hasn't relaxed on it at all, and won't I presume. 
aggirlj: Stilted way of speaking. 
OscagneTX: No, he's very consistent with it. The same with all the
"stilyagi" character types. 
aggirlj: Love the premise of women being in charge somewhat. 
OscagneTX: Yeah, but it makes it very hard on unattractive men. 
OscagneTX: %^) 
OscagneTX has left the room. 
OscagneTX has entered the room. 
OscagneTX: sorry. 
OscagneTX: I updated IE, and I forgot windows would want to restart. 
aggirlj: You're not experiencing problems with Ms. Isabel are you? 
OscagneTX: In Texas? I got a little rained on. *shrug* %^) 
aggirlj: South Carolina seems to have lucked out. 
OscagneTX: But last I heard there were something like 2,000,000 people out
of power on the east coast. 
OscagneTX: how many regulars do you suppose have no electricity tonight? 
aggirlj: Not sure. Teresa is possibly experiencing some of it. 
aggirlj: But she's more inland I think. 
aggirlj: Stephanie lives where, and didn't she just have her baby? 
OscagneTX: yeah, just today. 
Eflint46312 has entered the room. 
OscagneTX: I don't know exactly where she lives. 
Eflint46312: Hi, I'm here. 
aggirlj: She may not make it, du oh? 
OscagneTX: Howdy, Eric. 
aggirlj: Hi Eric, me Jane. 
Eflint46312: Hi. Now I've got to get a cup of coffee. Back in a minute. 
OscagneTX: Eric is our guest author. He's published by Baen. 
aggirlj: Cool. 
aggirlj: brb 
Eflint46312: Okay, I'm back. Slurping away even as I type. 
OscagneTX: wb. 
aggirlj: b 
OscagneTX: I'm worried about connections and power, what with the east
coast getting levelled tonight (according to cable networks %^) 
pjscott100 has entered the room. 
OscagneTX: howdy. 
pjscott100: jane, david 
pjscott100: howdy 
aggirlj: Hi Peter 
OscagneTX: okay, just to get this out of the way... <fanboy> I freakin'
loved 1632 and Mother of Demons. </fanboy> 
Eflint46312: Well, good. :-) 
aggirlj: I think David's lurking, just recording in other words. 
Pixelmeow has entered the room. 
aggirlj: Hi Teresa! 
OscagneTX: How receptive do you think Baen (the company or the guy) would
be to pimping us to the other authors? 
Pixelmeow: hey! 
OscagneTX: Howdy, Pix. We didn't know if the hurricane would get you. 
Pixelmeow: we have no electricity here 
Pixelmeow: it did 
Eflint46312: I dunno. Best way to find out with Jim Baen is just to ask
him. 
Copycat669 has entered the room. 
OscagneTX: okay. 
Pixelmeow: what's this about pimping? 
jcgsmtop1 has entered the room. 
NYC20CnLtd has entered the room. 
aggirlj: Hi Tam 
Eflint46312: Alternately, ask the authors you want. 
jcgsmtop1: Hi, everyone. I'm Joanne 
Eflint46312: Hi, Joanne 
OscagneTX: I was asking Eric if Jim Baen would help us get more authors for
the chats. Come to think of it, we ought to try to shanghai him, himself. 
aggirlj: <-----Jane 
Eflint46312: That's a very good idea. 
pjscott100: hey teresa, joanne 
OscagneTX: howdy, everyone. 
NYC20CnLtd: Hi. I'm John Haywood. 
jcgsmtop1: Hi, Jane!! 
Copycat669: hi guys....I'm so glad that you explained about pimping...I was
a bit worried there. 
Pixelmeow: hi, all 
LadyS122 has entered the room. 
pjscott100: (I'm Peter) 
LadyS122: hi 
Pixelmeow: Ah! 
Copycat669: I don't usually CHARGE for my services...so I'd be in trouble. 
jcgsmtop1: Pimping? 
Pixelmeow: lots of names here I don't know 
pjscott100: Teresa - Isabel to blame? 
OscagneTX: I guess that was poor choice of words. 
OscagneTX: Pix, how are you on with no electricity? Working a bicycle
generator or something? 
Eflint46312: Call it "soliciting." It can mean exactly the same thing, but
since it's got two more syllables you'll probably get away with it. 
Copycat669: I'm Tam. And despite my poor taste in jokes, I'm actually NOT a
prostitute. Although I will do pretty much anything else for a Heinlein
book I don'talready have. 
TheCOinOz has entered the room. 
Pixelmeow: I'm on my laptop 
OscagneTX: Hrm. I have almost all the books... what's your gender? *joking* 
TheCOinOz: Hi all 
Pixelmeow: batteries. 
jcgsmtop1: One of my most prized possessions is a hardcover first edition
of Time Enough for Love 
Pixelmeow: hey!!! 
pjscott100: I'd sell my body for a new Heinlein but doubt I could cover
more than a 2nd hand paperback 
jcgsmtop1: Have you all pre-ordered the "new" Heinlein on Amazon? 
TheCOinOz: Nice to catch up with you all, it's 10:30am Friday morning here. 
aggirlj: I have. 
pjscott100: Me too 
TheCOinOz: "new"?? 
TheCOinOz: What book is this? 
OscagneTX: Howdy, Ozzie. 
jcgsmtop1: See the Press Release on the The Heinlein Society webpage 
TheCOinOz: Gday mate. 
Copycat669: I'm borrowing a book right now. TAke back your gov't. It's not
easy reading, however 
aggirlj: The new one For Us The Living. 
Pixelmeow: I can hardly wait to get that.... 
TheCOinOz: Hmm, ok, I'll have to have a word to Dymocks (big book shop in
Adelaide) to get it in for me. 
OscagneTX: Are you the one I sent that to? I lent TBYG to someone and can't
remember who. 
Copycat669: yes, sir...it's me!! and i'm still faithfully reading it. 
OscagneTX: Ah... okay. I suppose I could have looked that up in my old
email, but I'm too lazy. 
Pixelmeow: That must've been before I had the book exchange... 
pjscott100: I have that one... ah, the Perot years *reminisces* 
Copycat669: For us the living seems a bit sacreligious to me. 
jcgsmtop1: why? 
Copycat669: isn't it a compilation that was done as soon as Ginny left us?
Is there perhaps a REASON she didn't want to release it? 
OscagneTX: Pix... I haven't used your exchange much because I only have one
copy of each book, so I loan them and want them back eventually. 
pjscott100: you have the wrong end of the stick there 
Copycat669: (keep in mind that I know NOTHING about it...) 
aggirlj: Not compilation, old manuscript. 
pjscott100: FIRST novel 
OscagneTX: The first one, yeah. 
Copycat669: says who? 
Pixelmeow: Osc, I am not in any way suggesting that you don't do enough!!! 
Pixelmeow: :-D 
OscagneTX: Too racy to be published in ... what was it... 1947 or
something? 
pjscott100: Says various noted Heinlein scholars 
Copycat669: Why didn't Ginny publish it? 
pjscott100: Robert Doc James tracked it down 
aggirlj: Too racey. 
aggirlj: At time. 
pjscott100: 'cos she didn't have it 
aggirlj: Lost. 
Copycat669: who has it? 
pjscott100: T'was lost 
OscagneTX: I think RAH classed it with his stinkeroos. 
Pixelmeow: If you *want* a book, send me a request. 
Eflint46312: In 1947, in SF, "too racr" covered just about everything --
except book and magazine covers. 
Copycat669: Pixel? how do i email you? 
Pixelmeow: webmaster@pixelmeow.com 
Pixelmeow: moderator@pixelmeow.com 
Pixelmeow: request@ and donate@ and teresa@ 
Pixelmeow: ;-) 
pjscott100: Hmm... high estrogen content in the chat room... must be due to
the topic :-) :-) 
Pixelmeow: all depends on what you'd like. 
TheCOinOz: woohoo, your own domain eh? 
Pixelmeow: Yeah, buddy! 
aggirlj: Yahhhhh. 
OscagneTX: hehe... Eric, if you run out of slush over in Baen's bar you can
always check out Pix's website. It's got mine and a few other's fiction.
%^) 
Pixelmeow: to both of you! 
Eflint46312: Mutter. Just what I need, more slush. :-) 
Pixelmeow: and nothing from the last month, durnit 
Pixelmeow: but who am I to talk, I've not had time to read it 
Pixelmeow: but what I have read has been wonderful. 
Eflint46312: Seriously, though, I can't. I'm running behind as it is,
keeping up with the slush in 1632 Slush 
Copycat669: Oh Pix...i've been on your website all this time...just didn't
make the connection. 
Pixelmeow: yours, Filly's, etc 
Pixelmeow: ROFL!!! 
Pixelmeow: Really? 
Copycat669: I've actually sent 2 books to others and received maybe 4? or
3? 
Pixelmeow: How recently? 
Pixelmeow: I've only had the Exchange for the last 7 months or so. 
OscagneTX: I can't imagine how you have time to write and keep up with
Mutter and 1632 forums, Eric. Spider Robinson just posted his first post to
alt.callahans because he's afraid of getting sucked in. 
Eflint46312: It's a stretch, but I take the time to do it. 
Eflint46312: It helps that I have a thick skin and I'm quite willing to say
"no" when I have to. 
jcgsmtop1: How does one access the alt.___ things? I'd be interseted in
callahans... 
OscagneTX: I mean... RAH didn't have time to read, much less answer, his
mail for all the writing. 
Copycat669: Um...ohbekaybe...pix, i guess I thought you were referring to
your link to Asa Hunter Memorial 
Pixelmeow: you can use www.google.com, then go to "groups" 
jcgsmtop1: Thanks. 
Eflint46312: I'm sure he got a lot more mail than I do. I don't answer all
my emails either. But posting on a web site has the advantage that you can
pick and choose. 
aggirlj: Or if you have MT Newswatcher, which is instantaneous, you can
look it up in their list of groups. 
OscagneTX: jcg... you need a newsreader. Outlook Express is best for 
starters, or i you object to MS there are specific things like Forte or
Galaxy(or something like that). 
Pixelmeow: once you figure out if you like what you see, you can go up to a
newsreader 
Pixelmeow: and get an nntp server 
jcgsmtop1: I have Outlook ... 
jcgsmtop1: Sounds complicated ... grin. I'll give it a shot 
Pixelmeow: gotta be OE. 
NYC20CnLtd: AOL has (or had) a Usenet Newsgroup reader. Don't know the
latest version. 
Pixelmeow: It's worth it! 
LadyS122: ew.. Mozilla... not OE... 
jcgsmtop1: Anything to do with RAH or Spider is DEFINITELY worth it 
LadyS122: jcg: Do you ever get on IRC? 
jcgsmtop1: I know what IRC stands for, but I've never used it. 
Copycat669: It's funny but I don't see the correlation. I can't stay awake
for Spider Robinson 
Pixelmeow: copycat, my website is http://pixelmeow.com 
Copycat669: Internet relay chat is irc 
jcgsmtop1: Right 
NYC20CnLtd: (I use Outlook Express also. It's OK--but it has the virtue of
being free--or at least hidden in the cost of the computer.) 
Pixelmeow: and you can browse to the book exchange from there. 
aggirlj: What is irc, I don't know. 
Copycat669: every chat is based on irc. Even this 
OscagneTX: Internet Relay Chat. 
aggirlj: Internet relay chat, nevermind. 
jcgsmtop1: I use ICQ, and I think it links to IRC somehow 
Copycat669: it's like the code that makes this possible. 
LadyS122: jcg: There's a chat room for Spider fans, called #callahans it's
has its moments. 
Eflint46312: Tastes differ. That's the first thing a professional writer
has to learn if he doesn't want to go nuts. Two different readers will give
you diametrically opposite opinions of anything you write. 
aggirlj: And a ton of posters. 
Pixelmeow: be right back folks, powers back on 
LadyS122: yay for power 
OscagneTX: Well... I know I was remiss in keeping up the pre-chat posting
in the newsgroup (sorry, I'm VERY busy now), but does anyone have any
opinion about the evolution of Heinlein's Heroines? 
NYC20CnLtd: That's good. (about the power) 
----------------- 
Editors Note: Log was lost for about 2 minutes 
----------------- 
DavidWrightSr: Sorry. connection dropped on me. Os are you keeping copy of
log? 
OscagneTX: WB, David the Elder. ( you are elder, right?) 
OscagneTX: I will, yes. 
DavidWrightSr: Yeah, I'm the old guy 
jcgsmtop1: All strong, independent women ... who chose when to let her man
think she depended on him 
OscagneTX: I lost a bit in the beginning to a "uncommanded restart". 
aggirlj: No loss, just a little chit chat. 
LadyS122: also usually quite pragmatic, in a not always logical way. 
DavidWrightSr: I've got everything except where I dropped out. 
Copycat669: I think that RAH's women could teach today's women a thing or
two aboutwhat REAL independence is, though. Many of them wouldn't have
survived withoutthe men in their lives, but knew how to remain independent. 
pjscott100: They appeared remarkably consistent to me 
OscagneTX: And since it looks like we're all here... has everyone "met"
Eric Flint? He's our guest author and caught my attention (other than for
his books) with his comments about... 
OscagneTX: Heinlein on his Baen Free Library website. 
jcgsmtop1: The URL to which is? 
jcgsmtop1: (Hi, Eric!) 
Copycat669: I haven't. Which one is eric? 
Eflint46312: Hi, everybody 
aggirlj: Howdy. 
Copycat669: Wll, guess that was a stupic question. hiya eric. :-) 
pjscott100: Hi Eric 
OscagneTX: http://www.baen.com/library/ 
jcgsmtop1: Thanks 
Pixelmeow: hi! 
OscagneTX: np 
aggirlj: wb 
Pixelmeow: Love the site, I've been there many times. 
Pixelmeow: and now that I have a cord connecting the machine to the wall,
we'll be just fine! 
Eflint46312: We just it some new titles by the way, although there seems to
be a glitch with one of them. 
Pixelmeow: I need to go more often. 
OscagneTX: The really neat thing is... he predicted my reaction as if he
were in my head. I got _1632_ off the free library, and then went and
bought it and about 4 other of his books. 
Eflint46312: Hmph. That should have been: "We just put in some new
titles... 
pjscott100: got to leave for another meeting... bye 
OscagneTX: bye 
Pixelmeow: later! 
aggirlj: See you Peter 
pjscott100 has left the room. 
Copycat669: Eric, i just browsed your letter a bit. NOTHING will ever
replacethe wonderful feel of a paper and leather book. Or even just a paper
book. But thanks for sharing online.. 
Eflint46312: It hardly took any great prescience on my part. That's exactly
how I became a lifelong fan of RAH and a number of other writers -- except
in my case the library involved was my high school library. 
jcgsmtop1: Eric, I love your comments on how the Baen Free Library was 
started! 
OscagneTX: True, but not exactly the industry standard attitude either,
what with RIAA suing 12 y.o. girls and all. 
Eflint46312: Well... eventually they'll develop electronic paper/ink to the
point that an e-book reader will seem just like a "real" book, with
flippable pages and everything. 
Eflint46312: But that's a ways off. The technology is almost there, but
right now a reader like that would cost a small fortune. 
Pixelmeow: indeed 
OscagneTX: I've been using my palm pilot. 
Pixelmeow: that's what I use 
jcgsmtop1: And I'll definitely peruse the titles ... and, if I like, I'll
buy the book. (My name's Joanne, and I'm a bookaholic ...) I have my life
in storage while I'm waiting for my condo ... and I have at least 40 boxes
of books alone! 
Eflint46312: Once that happens, the rules of the game will really start
changing in a significant way. 
Copycat669: Just for the record? METALLICA sued me. And I didn't download
theirstuff. it was automatically downloaded from a website I visitied as
partof a cookie. 
OscagneTX: It's pretty convenient. 
aggirlj: Joanne G? 
Pixelmeow: oh my goodness. 
jcgsmtop1: Yep, Hi, Jane!! 
aggirlj: Hi!!! 
jcgsmtop1: (*waving happily to Jane*) 
aggirlj: Back atcha. 
Pixelmeow: yeah, lots of stuff comes down to our machines second and third
hand from websites. 
jcgsmtop1: Remember in the story of Llita and Joe in Time Enough for Love? 
OscagneTX: yup. 
OscagneTX: In particular? 
jcgsmtop1: They could read all they wanted on the computer-equivalent... 
jcgsmtop1: But reading an actual book was a reward - and they had to wear
surgical gloves 
aggirlj: Whoa. 
jcgsmtop1: Nothing will ever replace a hardcover book 
Pixelmeow: I remember that.; 
aggirlj: My sentiments exactly, 
OscagneTX: yeah. But don't forget Laz plead guilty to tossing "casual
reading material" down the ouiblette in NOTB 
Eflint46312: The real question is whether fancy new electronic reading
gadgets will ever _replace_ paper books, at least any time in the
foreseeable future. 
Pixelmeow: different sort of reading material? 
OscagneTX: No way. At least not as a way to archive. 
aggirlj: Oh, it will. But there will always be the purists. 
NYC20CnLtd: I worry about the proposals among the music industry to
covertly search peoples' hard drives, and erase data if they find
copyrighted material. There's a word for that: hacking. 
OscagneTX: Say you store all your references electronically. Then Isabel
visits and you suddenly need to read about how to stop arterial bleeding...
but no electricity. 
Eflint46312: Supplement them, yes. That's already happening. But the fact
is that "obsolete" paper books are still an extremely efficient and
reliable way of storing information. And they have a lot of advantages. 
Copycat669: Ok, this isn't exactly on topic...well maybe it is...didn't
JErry Pournellewrite all the footnotes and stuff in Take Back Your
Government? 
Pixelmeow: NYC, you have my sentiment, right there. 
Eflint46312: Just for starters, nobody is going to change the program next
year. You can still read paper books printed hundreds of years ago. Try
doing that with any computer program after maybe ten years. 
OscagneTX: We could make some on-topic inferrences, though. We know that
RAH was VERY protective of his copywrites. 
jilyd has entered the room. 
aggirlj: Hi Dee. 
OscagneTX: howdy. 
Pixelmeow: hey girl! 
Pixelmeow: wow, got crowded... 
jilyd: Real problems gettingin here tonight, despite 2 invitations. 
DavidWrightSr: Off Topic: Warning Will Robinson. I've had 20 copies of
virus infected e-mail in the last 4 hours 
Eflint46312: Yes, he was. Extremely so. That's why -- to this day, so far
as I know -- no Heinlein title published by Baen has ever appeared in
Webscriptions. Virginia wouldn't agree to it. 
aggirlj: Is Isabel near you. 
Pixelmeow: well, Dee, time to get to slinging drinks... 
Pixelmeow: Oh NO! 
NYC20CnLtd: I don't think we've found the happy medium. I remember Mrs.
Heinlein aggressively going after any website that had any Heinlein
material on it--I did some searching and downloading for those efforts... 
LadyS122: hi Dee 
jilyd: I see some names htat are new to me. Howedy all, and especially 
Eflint, NYC and jcg. 
Eflint46312: Yeah. On that subject, she and I were poles apart -- and I
suspect she reflected RAH's viewpoint pretty closely. 
jilyd: Happy news, eh, Lady S. 
jcgsmtop1: Actually, I found out about The Heinlein Society because I was
looking up quotes from The Notebooks of Lazarus Long online ... 
OscagneTX: I saw on the NG someone announced a newly digitized Heinlein
novel... I guess I figured it was a Baen thing, but I didn't pay much
attention. 
Pixelmeow: I got another of those bogus M$ upgrades 
jilyd: Djinn in Beijing was pleased to hear, too. 
DavidWrightSr: That's them Pix. 
LadyS122: Happy News? 
jcgsmtop1: and I ran into a message from Ginny talking about how it wasn't
appropriate to publish any of RAH's stuff on the web. 
NYC20CnLtd: And while I was doing that, I kept remembered that some of the
stuff we have by Shakespeare would not exist today if modern copyright laws
existed back then. 
Pixelmeow: I saw that, too, it was from Bryan, and I checked on it 
Pixelmeow: bookmarked it 
aggirlj: Steph had her baby. 
Pixelmeow: yep 
Eflint46312: There might be one, but if so it's probably encrypted. That
was the aspect of Webscriptions that I think most disturbed Virginia
Heinlein. 
NYC20CnLtd: BTW--if you missed my introduction, I'm John Haywood. 
Pixelmeow: I delete those as soon as I see them, David. 
LadyS122: No one contacted us yet.. 
Copycat669: wow, that's a sobering thought...shakespear. 
jilyd: Don''t tell me we heard on the ng before you. Victor has arrived. 
Pixelmeow: Hi, John@
Lucylou98 has entered the room. 
OscagneTX: It bothered her that it was encrypted? 
LadyS122: actually, I knew, but only because my mom is a blabbermouth. 
OscagneTX: howdy, Lucy. 
Copycat669: Ya know, I like it when authors publish online, though I con't
havethe patience to read it online, but I respect those whose wishes are to
nothave them posted. 
jilyd: Well, someone made a general post for her, and I guess she has not
made her own calls yet. 
BPRAL22169 has entered the room. 
jilyd: Your mom? 
NYC20CnLtd: My mother was very close to Mrs. Heinlein, and (if you were
wondering), I've inherited Snowy. 
Eflint46312: Well... Shakespeare would be in the public domain. But I
remember how shocked I was when I discovered that W.B. Yeats' poetry was
still under copyright. 
OscagneTX: Howdy, again. 
Pixelmeow: I love ebooks, I'd rather have them, because I read them on my
pda. 
LadyS122: My mom works at the hospital's post partum floor, and Steph told
her not to tell anyone until she broke the news... 
LadyS122: oh well. 
Pixelmeow: AWWWW! 
Eflint46312: Fer chrissake, he died back in 1939 and he is universally
regarded as one of the great poets in the English language. It's absurd. 
jilyd: I wondered if you were part of that Haywood family. 
Pixelmeow: You are too lucky. 
LadyS122: so she told me that she didn't see her "On the Floor" which meant
she did see her. 
NYC20CnLtd: Ultimately, the goal of copyright is to promote the arts. 
OscagneTX: some decendant has the copyright? 
BPRAL22169: Hello. 
Pixelmeow: hey bill! 
aggirlj: Hi Bill. Hot 'n heavy. 
jcgsmtop1: Who died in 1939?? Shakespeare? 
jcgsmtop1: Grin 
Pixelmeow: sorry we didn't see you in Toronto 
Eflint46312: A pain in the ass for me, too, because I'd written the first
draft of AN OBLIQUE APPROACH using extensive selections from Yeats as
Aide's method of communication. Had to rewrite the whole damn thing. 
DavidWrightSr: John. I didn't realize who you were. Please accept my
condolences about your mother. We conversed quite a bit during Ginny's last
days and I liked her very much. She sent me a pair of cuff-links that she
had made for Ginny. 
BPRAL22169: Me too. 
Pixelmeow: I saw that too 
Copycat669: well....isn't Mickey Mouse about to enter public domain? This
year or next? 
NYC20CnLtd: Thank you. 
OscagneTX: Well, you know "Shakespeare" is an inherited office, not a
person... </bs> 
OscagneTX: No. I think congress changed the law specially for Disney. 
NYC20CnLtd: Mickey mouse would have entered the public domain in 1999--if
they didn't change the copyright law right before then. 
Pixelmeow: John, would you give Snowy a snuggle for me? 
jilyd: I never met your mom, NYC, but I thought the world of her for what I
heard of her love and care for Ginny. 
NYC20CnLtd: Disney was a major lobbyist for that change, also. 
NYC20CnLtd: Thank you. 
Copycat669: Ah. 
Pixelmeow: I used to ask Ginny that a lot, before I had a cat of my own. 
Copycat669: I love disney with my whole heart, but I don't quite agree with
the change in law. 
BPRAL22169: Disney Co is one of the great agents for evil in the modern
world. 
NYC20CnLtd: I'll pet Snowy for the group. (Last I saw him, he was on the
kitchen table.) 
Pixelmeow: Many people have shared their cats with me (or their cats have
adopted me) in the time before I had a cat 
Pixelmeow: thank you! 
Eflint46312: Modern copyright law is insane and is entirely driven by the
influence of giant corporations. It has not a damn thing to do with
protecting "writers" and "artists." 
OscagneTX: Eric, was it you or SR that wrote the short about the artists
lobbying for permenant-for-ever copyrights? 
Pixelmeow: I still don't have a cat 
Copycat669: I hope I don't speak of something of which I have no right, but
I thinkthat an author should have rights as long as he is alive and can
benefit,but once he's gone, his work should be shared openly. 
Eflint46312: It wasn't me. 
BPRAL22169: I think that was Spider Robinson 
OscagneTX: Had to be him, then. 
DavidWrightSr: I think the family ought to be able to keep benefitting, but
not corporations 
Pixelmeow: Tam, I certainly don't have the right, not being a writer, but
I'm somewhere between you and David 
OscagneTX: But then a family couldn't profit by selling the copyright to a
company. 
aggirlj: I agree. What if he never made it while alive and then became the
latest hot product. 
jilyd: That seems too limited, to me, just as current seems to long. 
Pixelmeow: Family, yes; corporation, I dunno. 
Eflint46312: My own opinion is about the same as that of Macaulay, way back
in 1841, when the issue was first seriously thrashed out. Copyright should
last for the lifetime of the author or some reasonable number of years. 
BPRAL22169: Once you start making legal distinctions between natural and
artificial persons, you're on a slippery slope. 
NYC20CnLtd: I worry that copyright law has become more about restriction of
the arts than promotion--for instance, large corporations doing their best
bo bury historic movies becasue they're now "politically incorrect" 
Copycat669: I TOTALLY agree wiht your PC fear! 
Pixelmeow: well, yeah, that's not good 
Eflint46312: Which comes _last_. The problem with simply making it the life
of the author is that would discriminate against authors who start writing
late in life -- or die early -- and still have real dependents. 
aggirlj: My point exactly. 
Pixelmeow: yeah 
jilyd: F'riinstance, Robert should have been able to provide for Ginny, no? 
Pixelmeow: YES! 
Copycat669: Well, now, Jilyd, hit below the belt, why don'tcha? hehehe. :-) 
BPRAL22169: With Robert and Ginny, we have the most benign possible example
-- the whole thing goes to fund research. 
Eflint46312: Yeah, sure -- but he still would have lost copyrights for
things written a long time ago. Macaulay, IIRC, proposed "life of the
author or 41 years," and I'd be willing to extend that to 50. 
Pixelmeow: I was just gonna say something about poking a sore spot... 
OscagneTX: But even if you limit it family... why should Herodotus'
g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-grandkids get to keep him out of public
domain? 
NYC20CnLtd: Life of the author + 20 years seems reasonable to me. 
BPRAL22169: I think we're thinking of it in the wrong terms. 
Copycat669: very true. Should it be limited to generations, perhaps? 
Eflint46312: Any specific provision for extending it to family has to be
PRECISE -- widow/widower or surviving underage children, thazzit. 
DavidWrightSr: Agree 
BPRAL22169: If the thing you're trying to promote is accessibility, let it
go to public domain when the publisher takes it out of print. 
jilyd: How about something like the old rule against perpetuities--a life
in being plus 21 years. Only teh Authors life plus 21 years. That gives
time for his youngest possible dependent child to come of age, and wido
tobecome self-suffi 
OscagneTX: Perhaps. How about "the life of the direct descendants or those
specifically specified in the author's will"? 
NYC20CnLtd: There's no reason to zap the publisher because the buy a book
from someone, and then the author dies suddenly. 
Copycat669: I mean, odds are that a grandchild of mine might have
appreciated mywork, but beyond that, the odds are slim that generations
past would haveknown me at all and it's just a matter of greed. 
Eflint46312: Otherwise you get absurd situations like the one with Henry
Kuttner's estate. That's controlled by C.L. Moore's second husband -- who
hated science fiction and made her willingness to stop writing it a
condition of their marriage. 
DavidWrightSr: Like Johann Bach Smith's "daughters" 
Pixelmeow: yes! 
BPRAL22169: I think as long as the publisher can profit by it, let it stay
in copyright. the publisher has a contract with the author that is property
of his estate. 
OscagneTX: bingo. and back on topic, David. 
aggirlj: :-) 
Pixelmeow: those "daughters" were NOT heroines. 
Copycat669: Ok...shakespeare still brings publishers profit. Should the
concept be PROFIT driven? 
Pixelmeow: :-P 
Eflint46312: No. Publishers' contracts should have SPECIFIC reversion
rights. No publisher should retain copyright in perpetuity. That's the road
to hell. 
OscagneTX: So how would you relate that, bill, to literature versions of
"abandonware"? 
DavidWrightSr: We have a long list of Heinlein females who were definitely
not heroines. I think 
Pixelmeow: yes. 
BPRAL22169: I'm not quite sure what you're asking, Oscagne. What does
"abandonware" mean? 
Pixelmeow: his females who were dumb were so totally stupid and worthless
that I wanted to just puke on them. 
Pixelmeow: like Grace Farnham. 
OscagneTX: It's books or software that are out of print, yet still
copyrighted by somebody who has no interest in re-publishing them. 
Pixelmeow: And whatsername in Door into Summer. 
Copycat669: OMG. I was trying to come up with an anti-heroin, and you just
HIT ON IT with GRACE farnham! 
DavidWrightSr: Belle? 
Pixelmeow: just wanted to slap them all to hell. 
Pixelmeow: Yes, her. 
Pixelmeow: GRRRR! 
OscagneTX: Yeah, Pix... that was perfect. He's great at writing jerks and
twits. %^) 
DavidWrightSr: Mrs. Keithley. Mrs. Grew 
Eflint46312: She wasn't stupid. Vicious and selfish, yes. Dumb, no. 
Pixelmeow: Grace was the slackest piece of work... 
Copycat669: she was the anti-Heinlein woman 
Pixelmeow: sigh. maybe so. but I could NOT stand her. 
OscagneTX: Mmm... I think the only thing keeping Mrs. Grew from being a
Heroine is that she's evil. Otherwise, she's very competent, no? 
Pixelmeow: simpering selfish woman. 
BPRAL22169: OK -- so the publisher (scum, every one of 'em) has to revert
the copyright to the author or the author's direct estated after a period
of, let's say -- 50 years unless the rights have reverted previously for
some other reason. 
BPRAL22169: How's that, Eric? 
BPRAL22169: No reversions to indirect or secondary estates. 
Eflint46312: ????? Baloney. MY rights revert after 12 years -- sooner than
that, if the book goes out of print -- unless the publisher does a
hardcover edition. Then they retain the rights, but only as long as the
book is in print. 
Copycat669 has left the room. 
BPRAL22169: But the author can vest his rights in public or educational
trusts that survive him or his legatees. 
Eflint46312: You really want to keep reversion rights clear and to the
benefit of the author. 
OscagneTX: Did you do that specifically Eric? By contract, I mean? 
BPRAL22169: OK, 12 years I don't have problems with -- make the term
whatever is convenient. 
Eflint46312: Yes. Baen has very clear and good reversion rights in their
boilerplate contract provisions. It's one of the things I like about them. 
BPRAL22169: But I think a fixed term is what is causing all the problems. 
Pixelmeow: Alright, favorite RAH heroine? 
OscagneTX: Bill... you're thinking of the Heinlein Society as a benficiary
of RAH through Virginia, aren't you? 
Pixelmeow: NOT Maureen 
aggirlj: No, I'm liking Wyoh right now. 
jcgsmtop1: I already voted for Tamara... 
BPRAL22169: The Society -- but I was thinking specifically of the Butler
Library Foundation Trust and the Heinlein Prize Trust. 
Eflint46312: The problem actually has nothing to do with publishers, per
se. They don't own these immensely long copyrights in the first place. The
authors or their heirs do. 
Pixelmeow: Friday 
BPRAL22169: Or the Long Range Foundation. 
Pixelmeow: or Deety 
jcgsmtop1: Friday is also high on my list 
jcgsmtop1: So is Minerva 
OscagneTX: Or the Howard Family trust? 
aggirlj: That's the one. 
BPRAL22169: Hands down: Hazel Meade Stone before she became Gwen Hardesty. 
jilyd: Although many people cannot stand her, I am rather partial to Hilda. 
Eflint46312: Even that wouldn't necessarily be a problem, if the heirs had
a realistic assessment of the value of their property. But, at least half
the time, they don't. So books go out of print and stay there. 
Pixelmeow: I sorta like Hilda too, but she can be, well, something that I
can't describe, but I'm not sure I like or not. 
jilyd: And Hazel. They both have a lot of starch. 
BPRAL22169: I can't stand Hilda 
Pixelmeow: maybe that's the word. 
Pixelmeow: Starch. 
Pixelmeow: tough little bitches. 
Eflint46312: Ironically, the best situation is often one where you CAN'T
find the heirs, even after seriously trying. Then you can legally set up an
escrow account on their behalf and go ahead and reissue the works in
question. 
BPRAL22169: I'm generally in favor of anything that keeps a book in print. 
aggirlj: A lot of it. Ever iron drabs for anyone in the Army with a ton of 
starch. 
OscagneTX: If we're talking favorites... I think I'd go with... either
Friday or Laz/Lor. 
jilyd: I start out by seeing them as physically tiny, and making up for it
with a lot of presence. 
BPRAL22169: Of course, with electronic storage and the possiblilty now of
micropayments, that may no longer be an issue. 
Pixelmeow: yes, dee. 
Pixelmeow: Osc, I can't put a personality to laz/lor. 
Pixelmeow: not to either of them. 
aggirlj: They are mostly small women, except I see Mum in TMIAHM as being
like my grandmother. 
Pixelmeow: for some reason, they don't work for me. 
Pixelmeow: like they are just flat paper, or something. 
BPRAL22169: I was kind of fond of Maureen Johnson. 
jcgsmtop1: I agree about Laz/Lor 
Eflint46312: On a purely personal level, my favorite RAH heroine is
probably the tough little cookie in THE STAR BEAST. Yeah, yeah, she's a bit
on the mercenary side. But I always get a kick out of her. 
OscagneTX: Hrm... they've got Lazarus' cantakerousness, but they channel it
more... friendly? something. 
BPRAL22169: Betty Sorenson, yeah! 
jcgsmtop1: Softer 
Pixelmeow: yeah, that kid was great! 
jilyd: Me either, pix. They are not developed, yet. Like a Polorid where
you cannot see the features yet. 
Pixelmeow: yes. 
jilyd: Betty, yes! 
Pixelmeow: and that back/and/forth with the conversation... 
OscagneTX: brb... foraging. 
Pixelmeow: k 
Pixelmeow: I just don't know, that did not work 
jilyd: You mean, sorta like we do in a chat room? :-) 
Pixelmeow: I can't see any people really doing that. 
Pixelmeow: :-P 
aggirlj: lol 
Pixelmeow: finishing each other's sentences, meanie! 
jilyd: I used to do that with my best friend, and us not related. 
jilyd: I can see twins doing it. 
Pixelmeow: hmmmm, YMMV I guess 
BPRAL22169: Apaprently Robert and Leslyn used to do that. 
jilyd: Xine and I sounded like a private language to other people. 
Pixelmeow: my daughter is now spread all over me 
jcgsmtop1: My friends and I can finish each other's sentences... 
Pixelmeow: going to sleep 
Pixelmeow: :-D 
LadyS122 has left the room. 
jilyd: Joe and I finish sentences or say the exact same thing
simultaneously, a lot. We laugfh and say, "You have been married TOO long!" 
aggirlj: Oh, well, tra ra. 
BPRAL22169: Unfortunately, most of the time, I have people guessing what
I'm going to say and getting it completely wrong. 
NYC20CnLtd: lol 
aggirlj: Resisting.
Lucylou98 has left the room. 
NYC20CnLtd: (I've been known to doi that with my friends.) 
jilyd: I can see why it would not work for someone who has not experienced
it, though. 
BPRAL22169: Sometimes I wind up thinking to myself: "Glad I'm not living in
Your head, cobber" 
jilyd: Bill, I have been so prone to tying of teh tongue lately, that
people don't get it right AFTER I spat all the words out. :-) 
aggirlj: A poll, ladies, who was the first RAH heroine that you completely
associated with and why? 
Pixelmeow: DEETY! 
Pixelmeow: sorta ditzy and smart all at once 
jcgsmtop1: Tamara - the description of "love with a little skin around her" 
jcgsmtop1: That's what I've aspired to since I first read the book ... some
30 years ago 
BPRAL22169: LOL, Jilyd 
aggirlj: My references a limited, buy being in front of an audience and
swaying them is what I like, therefore Wyoh to date. 
aggirlj: but being 
aggirlj: And the fact that she is a chamelon(sp?) 
jilyd: Hilda--smart, but not a